In a city often described as "built out," one parcel along El Camino Real stands out precisely for what isn't there.
Located in south Palo Alto, just north of Maybell Avenue and the junction of El Camino Real and El Camino Way, the property at 4146 El Camino Real has been vacant for 20 years, ever since a single-family home on it was demolished. Su Juan, who owns the property, has made several attempts since then to redevelop the land. In 2011, she applied to have the site rezoned, though the proposal never advanced.
Now, she is hoping for a better outcome. On Monday, the City Council will consider the latest proposal to rezone the property from R-15, which allows 15 residential units per acre, to R-30, which allows 30. If the council approves the rezoning proposal, a site that in recent years housed only a billboard would accommodate 21 condominiums. The new zoning designation would also raise the height limit for the new development from 30 feet to 35 feet and decrease the amount of open space the builder would be required to provide.
The council's meeting is a "pre-screening," which means that there will be no formal decisions taken on the proposal. It will, however, give the new council a chance to indicate whether they believe the site is ripe for housing and, if so, how many units it should contain. Given the council's recent adoption of "housing" as one of its five formal 2017 priorities and the shifting political balance toward the pro-development cap, architect Ken Hayes should expect newfound interest among policymakers in a project that he has been working on since 2012.
So far, the response hasn't been all positive. In 2012, residents of the nearby Barron Square development expressed some concerns about the project's aesthetic and traffic impacts. In 2014, when the Architectural Review Board was considering the project, several residents submitted letters asking for more information and, in one case, criticizing the rezoning plan.
Ree Dufresne and Ruth Lowy, who live in the area, argued in a letter that the project should be built in compliance with the current zoning and noted that the plan doesn't make provisions for visitor parking. They also said they were concerned about "safety issues" associated with a driveway planned for El Camino. The curb cut, they noted, is too close to an existing bus stop and stop light. They also cited traffic that "already backs up to a 'stand still' at that intersection from the problems created by the Arastradero/Charleston Project, to say nothing about the thousand plus kids crossing that intersection from El Camino Way to Maybell going to school in the mornings."
But for the developer and architect, the vacant parcel is an ideal site for housing. Their submitted project plans show two three-story buildings with sloped roofs and wood siding, separated by a landscaped corridor. Between them, the two buildings would include 21 units, which would be a mix of one- and two-bedroom condominiums. To comply with the local laws, three of these units would be sold at below market rate.
In an Aug. 26 letter to the city, Hayes urged members to support the rezoning proposal, which he argued would help address the city's housing shortage.
Hayes pointed to the city's Housing Element, which lays out the city's vision for housing and identifies as a major challenge the "high cost of housing in our community for all income segments due to the shortage of housing opportunities."
"There is limited land available," Hayes wrote. "The Housing Element indicates that only 0.5 percent of land in the city is vacant and available for development. 4146 El Camino Real is included in this 0.5 percent and should be developed for housing in a responsible manner.
"The Housing Element promotes increased densities along El Camino Real, a major transportation corridor. Although it is a small project, increasing the density from 15 dua (dwelling-units allowed) to 30 dua through this zone change will be a step in the right direction for responsible land use."
Comments
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Feb 8, 2017 at 9:01 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 9:01 am
Here we go again.
There is no mention of parking facilities in this article.
How close is this lot to Caltrain? I imagine it is more than a 10 minute walk. These are serious aspects of any potential development on this site.
another community
on Feb 8, 2017 at 9:33 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 9:33 am
@ Resident--
The closest Caltrain stop is San Antonio. I don't know the distance, but yes, it would take a lot longer than 10 minutes to walk it.
Downtown North
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:01 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:01 am
Agreed that the ingress/egress here would be very difficult to make work. However, if they can get that figured out, this should be an acceptable proposed project. It's been an eyesore, much like the rest of south Palo Alto, for decades.
I can't wait to hear what the "residentialist/obstructionist" crowd will find wrong with this one. The city is clamoring for housing, here is someone willing to provide it, and the pushback will be relentless.
Let's sit back and count the ways in which this will affect everyone's quality of life, isn't compatible with the 2-story hotel next door, and otherwise intrudes by being 35 feet tall.
Mountain View
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:04 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:04 am
@Resident
Of course it will have parking. That's a strict zoning requirement. You know that, don't pull out a red herring.
@WilliamR
Caltrain isn't the only transit in town. This location is directly on the VTA 22, a 15 minute frequency, 24 hour bus line, and a six minute walk to the VTA 522, an express bus (also with 15 minute frequency most of the day).
El Camino is a great location for adding more condo units to a housing starved city. Would you rather have them build in a single family home neighborhood? If not, then sounds to me that your issue isn't location, it's adding any more housing in Palo Alto.
Registered user
Leland Manor/Garland Drive
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:15 am
Registered user
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:15 am
Great location - and that section of El Camino could certainly use some improvement!
College Terrace
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:17 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:17 am
Palo Alto should enact eminent domain and take it from her and THEN put up the 30-4000 housing units.
Old Palo Alto
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:17 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:17 am
It's on El Camino Real, a mass transit corridor with nodes walkable from the parcel to major cross streets with bus service.
What's the density of people living nearby at BV? The owners of this parcel under review should be able to have the same density as BV since the last councils have played a constant game of Twister to keep BV as is. This parcel's owner seems to be offering more lower income housing with BMR and more smaller units than are on most similar new condo developments on El Camino. It has no upper floor large luxury units.
Given how Casa Olga/Epiphany Hotel has a wall without windows on Emerson with the tree mural, I wonder what the Barron Park neighborhood would think of having a taller building there with no windows overlooking their homes in return for making space for a public benefit of a dedicated mini-park? Dog run, bocce courts, or community gardens?
Midtown
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:19 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:19 am
@Janet - yes very concerned about adding more housing. PA has terrible congestion, traffic and parking issues. First we should look at fixing those issues, before adding housing that would only make them worse.
Downtown North
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:21 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:21 am
To the above post! Yes, the issue is adding more housing. We, in Palo Alto, the Bay Area, California, etc... live in a world that has limits. The ever expanding human population makes improvements in energy consumption, water consumption, pollution production and land needed to support our human existence (food, clothing, our endless need for electronic toys) a losing game. We think that we can expand forever but the reality is that we can't. It is time for thinking people to set limits to growth and move the discussion to how to create a good quality of life for a reasonable number of people. Overcrowding our streets, schools, infrastructure in the short term and over-consuming and polluting the world in the long term are more important issues than cramming in more housing.
Registered user
Fairmeadow
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:47 am
Registered user
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:47 am
What concessions will we ask for the rezoning? Can we get the entire site to be BMR and/or restricted to city/pausd employees?
Green Acres
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:51 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:51 am
We should not make exception (zoning change) for no logical reason!
Mayfield
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:57 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:57 am
Why only 3 BMR units? Also -- Let's get Bus Rapid Transit on El Camino and then all PA residents could move north and south rapidly, comfortably , and with wifi. The answer to our problems is more reliable and frequent mass transit ... including a much more convenient way to get to the airport (currently the transitions from Caltrain to BART and then into the terminals are non intuitive, time consuming and confusing (even to someone who has done it many times). We must help people move from town to town -- because any new residents probably won't be working in Palo Alto .... they'll be driving somewhere to work.
Charleston Meadows
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:58 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:58 am
[Portion removed.]
Caltrain? You have got to be kidding me. It is about 45-60 min walk. Buses? Who are you kidding? There will be no retirees living in those condos but business/tech people. They do not take buses.
And re-zoning again, and raising the height limit again. More money. Greed, greed, greed.
Who does not live in that area of south PA - take a drive there around 8:30 AM. This area is the WORST in all PA because:
- Charleston/Arastradero is the route to 101 and 280;
- there are three schools and a bunch of companies (Tesla, SAP, VMware, Stanford medical), Nest, PARk, VA hospital, and more up the street.
It takes 20 min now to get from Charleston to Sand Hill Rd in the morning.
Those who do not have to drive there do not want to know. [Portion removed.]
Thanks to all who is voicing up the quality ... forget about quality, the sanity of life in PA. This is becoming INSANE.
Resist further development.
Barron Park
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:03 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:03 am
As someone who lives close to this proposed development, I urge the city council to respect the current R-15 zoning for appropriate and aesthetic development. It is not right to rezone this property and increase building height in order to allow the owner to cram in denser development in an area already burdened with heavy and, at times, backed up traffic.
Palo Verde
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:16 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:16 am
No more up-zoning! Build the condos under current zoning and ensure they aren't under-parked.
Downtown North
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:22 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:22 am
@ No more, it is interesting that your first reaction to those who would support this would be out of town posters. The reality [portion removed] is that there is a population of people who reside right here in Palo Alto who do not agree with what the residentialists bemoan with every new project.
That you would find it so far-fetched to believe that there's a group of citizens who disagrees with you and others with like viewpoints is interesting. Just as you think you are reasonable, those citizens who don't feel the urge to resist everything that comes down the pike can be reasonable too.
[Portion removed.]
Barron Park
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:24 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:24 am
Single Family homes - single story - to replace all Quonset huts, run down motels and other questionable properties between Charleston and Page Mill. Let's get rid of the congestion and the rusted out signposts. I know - I'm dreaming.
Registered user
Midtown
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:25 am
Registered user
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:25 am
If the parcel is upzoned, there should be a public benefit. The only public benefit that I would welcome is additional parking to be made available for visitors or the public. Does the zoning require two parking places for the condos? If not, then it should and that could be a condition of upzoning.
I can't see someone spending $1M (or more likely $2M) for a condo and taking a bus to work. Most often, busses require at least one transfer and take much longer than driving, even in miserable traffic. In addition, there are no grocery stores or medical facilities in walking distance. Again, it would be so easy to check this out as their are already condos on El Camino Way. Simply survey the current owners, to see how many cars they own and park inside and outside the condo parking.
Downtown North
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:35 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:35 am
"It's on El Camino Real, a mass transit corridor... "
which depends on VTA's whims du jour. It is silly to allow permanent structures that depend on demonstrably iffy life support.
Barron Park
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:35 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:35 am
The zoning is RM 15.
It should stay that way.
Why?
First: housing pressure here is created by Stanford, among other forces, but I bring this up because the GUP is happening now (that's Stanford's development plan for the future) and Stanford continues to expand its educational facilities without commensurate expansion of housing: it has the land, the endowment, and the capacity to build housing that would free up space elsewhere. THAT is where the pro-density housing pressure should be applied. NOT on El Camino and neighboring cities.
Also: If any developer provides affordable housing, they are compensated by being allowed to build more units, provide less parking, and cover more of the area anyway. That's the state ruling. And if they are allowed to change the zoning to RM 30, after that zoning change they will ALSO be allowed to build more if some units are BMR. Do you want the resulting increase in traffic on El Camino? It's a choke point, not a "transit corridor" although it's a nice idea to use as an enabler for high density where it does not belong.
On Monday the council voted to allow a monolith to be built at 429 University. The reason: it complies with zoning if not the design regulations ALSO required. It was not required to provide any housing, even though the location WAS in a transit corridor. (Where were the Palantir and PAF demandos when that building was being considered? Why was the hue and cry NOT about building housing there??? The owner is instead building retail, yet more offices, and a few luxury condos: that's her right. [Portion removed.]
Thus, I wonder if city council will apply and uphold the EXISTING zoning standard here? That is, allow the owner just what the zoning permits, RM 15, and not more. That, after all, is the zoning right she purchased, and not more. Or will they be listening the their contributors from Palantir and PAF?
Note: has traffic improved AT ALL from using Uber sometimes? Has the bus increased ridership? What is the effect, if any, of the Traffic Management efforts? Where's the measurement? Ah, unfunded.
Further: "pedestrian friendly" -- which one would naturally think has to do with enabling an environment that is not harrassed by noise, pollution, and traffic, and provides needed neighborhood-serving retail...
This is terminology that has been used to trick unwitting citizens (I was one of them) into supporting the "pedestrian friendly" idea. I grant you, it's a GREAT IDEA. WOULD THAT IT FLOURISHES> Yet, how does providing NO retail and building ON the road provide friendliness to the pedestrian?
Keep the zoning as is. RM 15.
Duveneck/St. Francis
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:41 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:41 am
Ree Dufresne and Ruth Lowy are right on. As residents close to the proposed proect, they are well aware of the issues that would occur with this development and seem to have done their research. IMHO, many of the issues w/ construction in PA have stemmed from relaxed zoning regulations, increased traffic and lack of parking. There is only so much land here. The current owner of the property should have been aware of the zoning restrictions when she purchased the land and she needs to respect them, as does the PA ARB.
Barron Park
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:46 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:46 am
Google maps shows it is a 1.5 mile, 29 minute walk from this site to San Antonio CalTrain. And very few commuters are willing to do that, though a few might hop on a bike. I have lived in Palo Alto for 25 years and have wondered for years what would become of this empty lot. My main concern would be with adequate parking. Otherwise it seems like an acceptable project.
Charleston Meadows
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:48 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:48 am
Anonymous:
I have been wondering about of out-of-town developers, yes. But I also note that those who live in PA but far from that area of South PA do not care. [Portion removed.]
But actually yes, I do wonder why PA residents want more of this? Not enough taxes? Nah. Need more housing in PA? The office workers/residents ratio is 3/1 here. That is how much you would need to build - three times the existing housing. Not 30 units.
[Portion removed.]
"until knowing the details about the project. Walk in with an open mind instead of out of hand deriding every project that comes before ARB or City Council. -- When we know more of the details we will talk more. Now we are just discussing the article. Can we do that? Thank you.
Mountain View
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:51 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:51 am
@No More Not sure who you think the out-of-town developers are, but I'm a middle-aged Mtn View homeowner working in the tech industry with a retirement-age husband. At some point in the next decade or so, we'd like to sell our home and move to a smaller place on a transit line that would make it easy for us to reach grocery stores, pharmacies, doctors offices, major shopping centers and regional transit lines.
This location on El Camino would be perfect for us, and is a rare find in suburban Silicon Valley. Whole Foods, Trader Joes, Safeway, Palo Alto Medical Foundation, Stanford Shopping Center, Walmart, Kohls, Petco, CVS, Starbucks, Peets, Caltrain, and too many restaurants to name. All a 20 minute bus ride away. Sign me up.
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:56 am
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:56 am
Janet LaFleur
You pick on me about the parking. I never said anything at all about that would indicate a negative attitude to this, in fact I am very much in favor of it. However, the article does not mention parking. You say "of course there will be parking", but how do you know that? There has been talk of a lot of places building housing and that they are only putting in very little parking. I think asking about parking is a valid concern.
Yes, I know that there are buses on ECR. I know that but there is no bus that will take people who live there to Caltrain, and since we are going to be losing VTA services in the north part of the county I think it is valid to think of other forms of transportation.
Please think before you assume what I think.
Old Palo Alto
on Feb 8, 2017 at 12:27 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 12:27 pm
>"It's on El Camino Real, a mass transit corridor... "
>which depends on VTA's whims du jour. It is silly to allow permanent structures that depend on demonstrably iffy life support.
Absolutely, buses are a fiasco on El Camino. I was just thinking about how the new council majority thinks about transit and the 50' limit, too. All of El Camino is a mess now. If I were on the council I'd never approve any up zoning there unless mass transit was proven to be improved before any new housing or offices were allowed on or near El Camino.
Mountain View
on Feb 8, 2017 at 12:38 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 12:38 pm
@Resident Parking it part of the zoning code with strict minimums. There's no need to call it out unless the developer is asking for a variance on parking specifically. The minimum may not be what you consider enough but you didn't phrase it that way before.
As for bus service, the VTA 22 and 522 on El Camino are VTA's most heavily used lines. The new VTA plan is designed to improve service on heavily used lines (like El Camino) and reduce or eliminate lines with lower ridership (like the VTA 34 which runs past to my current home).
Those VTA 22/522 buses on El Camino go straight into the Caltrain Palo Alto station, a Caltrain bullet stop, with only about 100 feet of walking between bus and train. It couldn't be more direct than that. Where did you get the idea that the VTA bus on El Camino doesn't connect with Caltrain?
Downtown North
on Feb 8, 2017 at 12:51 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 12:51 pm
@ No more, I'm confused as to how my upbringing has anything to do with this. I presume you feel your upbringing is superior and you are on morally higher ground? Bizarre. Also, way to take my quote out of context by breaking it apart right where it seems like I suggest for people to keep quiet, when in fact I am saying come in with an open mind before thou doth protest.
Residentialist/obstructionists have a way of twisting others' words and spin things negatively. Read my full quote in context and what I am simply trying to convey is, before complaining, move in with an open mind. You don't know the details of this project, or maybe you do, but without viewing the plans, it's not appropriate to automatically jump on the bandwagon against a development.
That's quite the conclusion you managed to reach by me having an open mind on this (see my first post here). So if I don't live in the area, and I support the project, I am branded with the NIMBY label. Got it. I didn't realize that the only ones who are entitled to have an opinion are those in the immediate neighborhood. Thank you for clarifying for the rest of us your personal rules of engagement. Besides, you don't know my personal attitudes on what goes on around my neighborhood. I would be happy to support such housing near us if it helps with the affordable housing crunch.
Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. That's what the residentialist/obstructionist crowd love to make.
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Feb 8, 2017 at 12:57 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 12:57 pm
Janet, I was thinking of San Antonio station as being the closest, so yes you are quite correct about the other direction. I suppose my think was southbound rather than northbound.
No mention of parking is no longer something I take as a given in Palo Alto. So many recent condo developments have very poor parking for visitors and even residents end up parking on the nearest residential street. Tandem garages are not popular and seem to mean residents park at least one vehicle on a neighboring street.
Yes, parking is a big concern, I'm afraid. Otherwise I have no objection to condos being built here.
Downtown North
on Feb 8, 2017 at 1:02 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 1:02 pm
@ No more, by the way, I was born and raised in Palo Alto. Nevetheless, I don't feel entitled that my opinion is morally superior to those who disagree with me.
Sure, we can discuss the article, and let's not take quotes out of context. We were discussing the article to begin with when you speculated about how out of town developers are doing the posting here. Assumption.
Midtown
on Feb 8, 2017 at 1:13 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 1:13 pm
No upzoning!
Adobe-Meadow
on Feb 8, 2017 at 1:39 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 1:39 pm
Deja vu
I know the property very well. I walked on it for many hours from Thanksgiving to Christmas many years ago when the Men's Club at our church had a Christmas tree lot there. I remember proposals back then for housing development with underground parking. The condos on Thain Way were built in that timeframe. I also remember the Cameo Club, The Island, and the beer garden with dirt floor downstairs, next to our tree lot. I must be getting old.
It will be interesting to follow the progress of the project. What is the reason for the request for rezoning other than the benefits to the owner and developer? What is the zoning on Thain Way? I've seen recent listings for those condos in the $1,250,000-$1,500,000 range. I imagine new builds will be in the $2-3 million range. So much for affordable housing in PA. Please, CC, focus on that as much as you talk about it. Many of you are for pro housing, but it turns out to be almost all market rate. I've heard the optimism of convincing developers to build affordable only complexes but I don't think sticks and carrots will work. Developers will work the council until they get their way. And it will be easier with our new council.
What will the 3 BMR units sell for. Will any be rentals?
Others are getting old with me. I 'googled' the Cameo Club and found an ordinance passed by CC in 1993 re the club as a poker parlor. Guess who two of the members were! You probably guessed correctly... Kniss and Simitian.
Meadow Park
on Feb 8, 2017 at 1:40 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 1:40 pm
At least one person claims to want to urbanize Palo Alto so that they can retire there with urbanity.
I don't see Palo Alto as a magnet for retirees because of its costs, and because it is already a crime magnet. To each his own.
But I don't think this entitles the person in question to claim victim-hood, or high moral ground, or green intentions, or progressive left unity.
Barron Park
on Feb 8, 2017 at 1:41 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 1:41 pm
R-15 should be fine. No upzoning. Why should we give a free windfall to the developer? 11 or 12 condos should be plenty for that site. Traffic through there is already a nightmare in the afternoons. Plus Barron Park is essentially a much lower density neighborhood, so R-30 would really be out of character. If the city wants really dense housing, put it downtown.
Downtown North
on Feb 8, 2017 at 1:56 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 1:56 pm
If Palantir were to be kicked out of the 20 buildings they lease, perhaps those could be turned into condos??
There would certainly be fewer tenants or owners than Palantir has employees! Think of the traffic reduction!
Charleston Meadows
on Feb 8, 2017 at 2:05 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 2:05 pm
Figure out transportation and parking first! Really need to push for building moratorium!
4146 El Camino parcel should be a community center with a swimming pool. That end of Palo Alto has nothing for the middle and teen aged group and Seniors.
Duveneck/St. Francis
on Feb 8, 2017 at 2:24 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 2:24 pm
Let's look at the possibilities - stay positive -
I suggest working with the project -- the possibility of this project. Better than a run-down empty field. Meanwhile, IF the entrance on El Camino Real can be substantial enough, then it will be safe for everyone. I think a tiny entrance isn't a great idea. I feel the project must be realistic and offer parking for condo owners and visitors. We need this type of housing, and El Camino Real offers the possibility of developing into a better-served thoroughfare for all forms of transit...
Green Acres
on Feb 8, 2017 at 2:27 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 2:27 pm
Six better options...
- BMR housing for the displaced residents of Buena Vista.
- A new small trailer park, since Palo Alto only has one.
- A YMCA for South Palo Alto
- Senior housing, since Maybell shut them out.
- New Police Station
- Housing for the City Manager and PAUSD Superintendent so we don't have to keep buying them houses and providing housing allowances
Adobe-Meadow
on Feb 8, 2017 at 2:34 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 2:34 pm
I live in south PA, and drive that area a lot. Traffic isn't nearly as bad there as downtown or around San Antonio/Charleston.
PLEASE add more housing!!! I wish this could be a 10 story tall lot-line to lot-line building! We are not a tiny little residential community. We are a growing city and we need more housing!!!!
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Feb 8, 2017 at 3:01 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 3:01 pm
It did not take long but the new city council has finally found the last straw necessary to completely gridlock the flow of traffic on ECR during rush hour.
Another high density development would be the perfect compliment to the 8 traffic lights and 4 non intersection crosswalks already between Arastradero and Page Mill to grind movement to a halt permanently.
[Portion removed.]
Charleston Meadows
on Feb 8, 2017 at 3:29 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 3:29 pm
Janet Lafleur,
"we'd like to sell our home and move to a smaller place on a transit line that would make it easy for us to reach grocery stores, pharmacies, doctors offices, major shopping centers and regional transit lines."
You are obviously very welcome to. About $2M (more by then?) will get you in and you can waive at me when we sit in our cars on the road. Buses are stuck in the same traffic jams, let me tell you.
It really beats me why people other than investors are fighting for more housing. Prices have been only going up. For them to go down, there should be about three times the existing housing built (3:1 ratio, remember?). For the existing owners, that will mean devaluation of their property.
Also, please remember that this area is extremely attractive for very wealthy investors. They pay cash, so I am afraid all of us who cannot are out of luck.
I wish I knew why the moderators remove "NIMBY" at this site. Is that considered to be a derogatory term now?
Green Acres
on Feb 8, 2017 at 3:32 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 3:32 pm
I think if the property is upzoned, it should only be if all reasonable concerns like safety are addressed, and only if all the units are low income. Note that BMR in Palo Alto could be people making $200,000 /year as a couple. That's little to no actual public benefit for a huge public cost.
Better would be retail or something for the youth. Remember them? As the Council has allowed more and more development, there have been fewer ways the youth can feel connected and be active. Especially since the City Council refused to keep the Maybell site just long enough for residents to buy it as parkland, but sold it out if spite. It still makes me wonder about those "finders fees"...
On the other hand, that partucular area has been hard hit by overzoning. That monstrous hotel near the cirner there, Ricky's Hyatt (remember that? We were told only seniors would live there and the upzoning was justified for Palo Alto seniiors. Realky, why doesn't the Weekly look at all the upzoning within just a few blocks of that site.
I don't think the new Council should pick a fight there, though, not if they don't want to get recalled. Residents there have shown they already know how and will. If they have to fight overzoning, may as well do the recall at the same time. Doing it sooner than later with all the shenanigans with developer cash not reported to the public before the election from Fine, Kniss, and Tanaka, sure seemed a lot like collusion, too.
Midtown
on Feb 8, 2017 at 4:22 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 4:22 pm
@Gale Johnson is right. Condos will just push prices up. Just did a search - exIsting townhomes/condos in PA are all going for over $1.5M, if you exclude the one only for Stanford staff. These would be new and on the Main Street, hence will probably start at $2M. All it does is set the absolute floor first r even the crappiest single family home. Those clamoring for more housing in the hopes of getting prices down will be sorely disappointed. Developers are not going to sell below market rates. BMR is only feasible if the govt subsidizes, and I absolutely do not want my taxes to be used to subsidize housing and create more congestion.
Palo Alto Orchards
on Feb 8, 2017 at 5:04 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 5:04 pm
Don't forget Bowman School is building their other campus on Arastradero. More gridlock.
Arastradero may need to go back to 4 lanes if more development keeps coming to this side of town.
Midtown
on Feb 8, 2017 at 5:11 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 5:11 pm
CalTrain California Ave is 1.7 miles, CalTrain San Antonio is 1.5miles.
One going to work and the other coming home adds a bit of variety and an hour of good exercise.uxnch
Barron Park
on Feb 8, 2017 at 5:23 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 5:23 pm
There is ground level parking behind the condominiums, which face the street, as well as underground parking. You can take a look at the plans. Path: City of Palo Alto>Departments>Planning and Community Environment>Development Proposals>Residential Development Projects>follow instructions to view the plans.
While you're there, take a look at the plans submitted to ARB for 16 homes at 567 Maybell Avenue, the orchard/housing site at the heart of the referendum a few years back.
Midtown
on Feb 8, 2017 at 5:27 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 5:27 pm
Is the Hayes Group the only architect Group allowed to operate in Palo Alto? Please do not rezone. Keep in mind that bubbles have a way of bursting. You only need a short memory to remember the last two. Also most of these big employers have a way of moving out of PA, most recently Survey Monkey. So maybe we don't need the office space.
Monroe Park
on Feb 8, 2017 at 8:22 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 8:22 pm
Building and building and building and building. yes!! let's keep adding to the massive traffic of this community. Anyone who gets into office forgets why they were voted to office. they all become liberal and do whatever the heck they want--whatever is going to put a few extra dollars into their pockets. forget about the people they are supposed to represent. what an outrageous development Palo Alto has become.
Mountain View
on Feb 8, 2017 at 8:36 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 8:36 pm
@AB
Housing is expensive because the bay area has barely built any new housing in decades despite a ever-increasing demand for new units. Your conceptualization for how pricing works is wrong. They'll go for whatever they can sell it for, and in a market where housing supply is artificially restricted, that price will be very high. Build enough units to satiate demand and prices will go down.
Downtown North
on Feb 8, 2017 at 9:08 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 9:08 pm
"...the new city council has finally found the last straw..."
Such sanctimoniousityness. I surmise the site is near your house.
Mountain View
on Feb 8, 2017 at 9:26 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 9:26 pm
@No more
"It really beats me why people other than investors are fighting for more housing. Prices have been only going up. For them to go down, there should be about three times the existing housing built (3:1 ratio, remember?). For the existing owners, that will mean devaluation of their property."
Exactly why Prop 13 needs to go away.
Palo Verde
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:22 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:22 pm
"Build enough units to satiate demand and prices will go down."
How many units would that be? (say, to the nearest thousand)
Do you really believe that would "improve" Palo Alto?
If we improve Palo Alto, wouldn't demand go even higher?
Midtown
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:53 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 10:53 pm
I think we are so far behind on housing in the valley, we should build lots more, wherever we can. Palo Alto's creation of Stanford Business park, and the current expansion there (over time, every building is getting rebuilt to max density) is part of the cause, so we should absolutely be part of the solution. In this case, rezone to R-30, and put in plenty of small apartments. Sure it's a windfall for the property owner, so figure out an appropriate community benefit as compensation.
Then do it again and again. Have you taken the bus down El Camino lately? I think we should learn from Mountain View and Sunnyvale.
Mountain View
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:16 pm
on Feb 8, 2017 at 11:16 pm
@musical
1.8 million across California by 2025 to account for current growth projections.
Web Link
It would absolutely improve Palo Alto and The Bay Area as a whole. Every city needs to start building high-density, mixed-use, transit-oriented developments to counter crushing housing costs and make it easier to live closer to your work, reducing traffic congestion. Not building is going to cause people to sprawl outwards even further to low-density areas that mass transit can't support, increasing car usage, worsening commutes, and polluting the environment further.
Palo Verde
on Feb 9, 2017 at 12:01 am
on Feb 9, 2017 at 12:01 am
Our share is then 26 new housing units per year within the square mileage of Palo Alto.
I can see prices dropping already.
Duveneck/St. Francis
on Feb 9, 2017 at 12:10 am
on Feb 9, 2017 at 12:10 am
People keep asking about what benefit the project provides that would be a reason to upzone, but they're totally missing the point. More housing units in Palo Alto are a benefit unto themselves, whether they're subsidized or not. You've got more than 3 jobs per housing unit and tons of people who would love to give up hour long commutes but can't move into Palo Alto because it's too expensive. And not only is it expensive because it's PA but because there aren't that many one bedroom condos in PA. Most of PA is single family homes. So just giving people who live and work in PA more options is a huge benefit. I strongly support the upzoning here and every other transit-rich place in PA.
Mountain View
on Feb 9, 2017 at 12:12 am
on Feb 9, 2017 at 12:12 am
@musical
Not even close. Your mayor even agrees that Palo Alto needs to pull its own weight with the rest of the region in tackling the housing shortage. We need thousands of new units going up in cities across the bay area, not tens.
Web Link
Palo Verde
on Feb 9, 2017 at 12:45 am
on Feb 9, 2017 at 12:45 am
I assumed your "1.8 million across California by 2025" came from the executive summary line "180,000 homes needed a year to keep up with housing growth from 2015-2025." Palo Alto land area 24 square miles, California 163,700 square miles.
24 / 163,700 x 180,000/year = 26.4 homes/year
Of course that proportionality is ridiculous, since Palo Alto land is so much more expensive than California on average, so it makes much more sense that new housing construction would be more affordable elsewhere.
Mountain View
on Feb 9, 2017 at 1:24 am
on Feb 9, 2017 at 1:24 am
[Post removed.]
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Feb 9, 2017 at 6:03 am
on Feb 9, 2017 at 6:03 am
@Curmudgeon
Not quite. To be truly sanctimonious like most progressives, I would need to call for high density housing in OTHER peoples' neighborhoods while simultaneously objecting to it in my own.
YIYBY
(Yes in Your Back Yard)
Midtown
on Feb 9, 2017 at 6:16 am
on Feb 9, 2017 at 6:16 am
City council - please prioritize the requests from current PA property tax payers. They have been begging for improvements to the current congestion, traffic and parking woes. MV residents like Yimby and Janet would like to move to PA and are hence clamoring for more housing. Please don't prioritize the wants of such folks over the people who are paying PA property taxes. Not every voice should be equal, as not everyone is paying equally. First please fix the infrastructure issues your current homeowners are imploding you to solve.
Mountain View
on Feb 9, 2017 at 9:56 am
on Feb 9, 2017 at 9:56 am
To be clear, I don't want to move to Palo Alto. I want housing in the Bay Area to be cheaper, and that means the Bay Area as a whole, including Palo Alto, need to contribute to fixing the housing shortage. You guys have spent long enough stopping new developments because they don't fit the "character" of the neighborhood that I consider the proclamations of needing to build the infrastructure first to be disingenuous. Build both the infrastructure and the housing. Mountain View is finally coming around to this just as you need to. This is a regional problem that Palo Alto is a part of just as much as every other city.
Palo Verde
on Feb 9, 2017 at 10:25 am
on Feb 9, 2017 at 10:25 am
Should I believe the data I see this morning that Palo Alto apartment rents are cheaper than both Redwood City and Mountain View? And equal to San Mateo? The econ-101 people here would have to say either Palo Alto has more supply or less demand.
Green Acres
on Feb 9, 2017 at 3:48 pm
on Feb 9, 2017 at 3:48 pm
I had out of town visitors which made a mistake to rent a hotel room at the ECR and Maybell site....They remarked that the traffic starting and stopping from the corner continued night and day and they had NO rest while there......
Does Palo Alto REALLY need the extra taxes coming in on this project??? Concerned for people who will have to reside there in a project vs one that should be more motivated towards some peace and quiet....................
Mayfield
on Feb 9, 2017 at 10:08 pm
on Feb 9, 2017 at 10:08 pm
We need more Condos, like we need a hole in the head.
Wow, just build affordable housing, if you are going to be housing at all.
Mountain View
on Feb 10, 2017 at 12:02 am
on Feb 10, 2017 at 12:02 am
"Affordable housing" is subsidized housing. The only way you're going to tackle the actual problem of housing being ridiculously expensive is to build more market rate housing and keep up with demand.
Green Acres
on Feb 10, 2017 at 1:37 am
on Feb 10, 2017 at 1:37 am
@Yimby,
Your posts are disconnected from reality, but we get that you want more housing and don't care about the impacts to schools, traffic, pollution, environment, quality of life. You think people all want to live near where they work in Palo Alto, imagining I suppose the jobs of yesteryear that didn't change the way they do now. Your idea that building more here with global interest in the real estate is so delusional and demonstrably wrong it just comes across as lying. It's not even that easy to get housing near where you want when you can afford it and it's available. We live in Palo Alto, because that's where our housing offer was accepted, we don't work here. Across the street - work in SF and SJ, and split the difference. It's not about building. There are older apartments nearby that our friends had no trouble renting a vacant unit in.
The housing in an already built up area brings new problems that can't easily be solved, whereas moving out the businesses would solve a lot of problems. San Jose wants the extra development. If Palantir moved to San Jose, they would make everyone happy, and they could get the growth they want. Palo Alto is suffering from too much office space, not insufficent housing. Did you miss the last election? So many communities would love the influx of workers and companies.
It's really only a matter of time that residents get so fed up that they put forward initiatives to limit office occupancy and keep this place vibrant again.
Green Acres
on Feb 10, 2017 at 1:39 am
on Feb 10, 2017 at 1:39 am
[Post removed.]
Mountain View
on Feb 10, 2017 at 3:26 am
on Feb 10, 2017 at 3:26 am
That's not how the housing market works at all. Prices go up with limited supply. Introduction
Intentionally not building new housing will only make prices go up higher.
More spead out sprawl isn't the answer. Centralization along mass transit corridors is ideal.
Palo Altos proximity to Stanford is going to always make it a desirable hub for tech companies trying to attract students, so pushing them away from the university certainly doesn't make sense.
Midtown
on Feb 10, 2017 at 6:09 am
on Feb 10, 2017 at 6:09 am
@Yimby - intentionally not building more housing will help not make the traffic and parking problems get worse. Yes it might not reduce home prices, but that is ok. The city councils primary goal should be to improve the living conditions in PA. The primary goal should not be affordable housing (which would worsen traffic and parking. After improving infra adding housing is ok, but not now.
Stanford
on Feb 10, 2017 at 7:30 am
on Feb 10, 2017 at 7:30 am
Land in Palo Alto is the primary driver of high prices. More density increases the utility of the land and therefore increases its price. More density also increases demand, because developers are more interested in dense building than single family homes.
If commercial building stopped, there would be a point at which enough housing would stabilize prices, but there is at least an order of magnitude more demand for housing in Palo Alto than supply. To build to the demand would require millions of new homes. Until then, more density raises housing prices. And to stop commercial building would eliminate vibrancy.
Downtown North
on Feb 10, 2017 at 11:16 am
on Feb 10, 2017 at 11:16 am
This seems like a reasonable use of the property. Many, many young tech workers drive solo into Palo Alto and MV each day for work. As long as there's sufficient parking for the new units, they will be filled.
Stanford
on Feb 10, 2017 at 12:48 pm
on Feb 10, 2017 at 12:48 pm
@seems fine
The average job tenure in the valley is less than two years. Even if a single person moves close enough to their Palo Alto job to walk to it, after a short while, they may no longer be single, they may take another job, or their job may move.
Only the least likely future scenarios include no commuting for someone moving into new housing on El Camino in Palo Alto.
Registered user
Barron Park
on Feb 10, 2017 at 1:55 pm
Registered user
on Feb 10, 2017 at 1:55 pm
Several months ago I addressed the council and requested that exceptions to residential zoning limits should not be allowed except for the construction of affordable housing.
This project, nice as it is, requires rezoning from R-15 to R-30 and other exemptions even though only 21 units would be built, 3 of them below market rate as required by law.
Why rezone from R-15 to R-30 and only get 6 additional housing units instead of 15? Let the developer make the choice. Build up to 15 market rate homes under current zoning or an all-affordable housing project of up to 30 units which R-30 rezoning would allow. I suggest this knowing that financing affordable housing is complicated and may not be possible to put together to acquire and build on this lot.
Complaints were raised that the Maybell site was unsuitable for low-income seniors due to the two block distance from access to public transit to services and shopping on El Camino Real. This site is ideal for car-free access to everything from downtown Palo Alto to San Antonio Shopping Center and downtown Mountain View.
It has been wonderful having that bit of bare land and seasonal vegetation to look at while walking or driving along El Camino for the past 20 years, but I'm willing to trade my esthetic satisfaction for 15 market rate condos or 30 small, affordable apartments. This is not say that I wouldn't be even more pleased if it were developed to meet a neighborhood need, but the likelihood of that is just about zero.
Registered user
Adobe-Meadow
on Feb 10, 2017 at 3:11 pm
Registered user
on Feb 10, 2017 at 3:11 pm
@ seems fine
I suspect Adrian Fine also thinks it's fine. lol! But, how many local tech workers can afford $2-3 million dollar condos? I'll guess, 'zero'. Rezoning will only benefit the owner and developers. And the buyers will be, for the most part,'well to do people', one's who have already 'made it', however they made it. And the prices will be a minimal or non-consequential issue for them.
I'll wager that all the tenants will own cars and use them regularly. It will be interesting to see how they egress onto ECR. Another stop light? Wonderful! Just what we need.
I'm sure this will be debated at length at council for hours, but in the end the 'fab five' will prevail and get their way. Another notch on the belt of adding new housing in PA. ABAG will be so happy! They shouldn't be. It makes no progress towards housing for the very low income, low income, or median income people, and I honestly think our CC doesn't have a clue how to get developers excited about helping out on that side of the issue. I don't fault CC entirely, because there is no answer or solution to it, but don't keep talking about it as a high agenda item, when you're running for office, like it's one you can solve, when in reality it's not one you can solve. Nice sound bites when you're running for office, but when faced with the reality of solving the problem, once in office, you just seem to wither away in advancing real solutions.
Sorry, in a weak moment I was thinking outside the political box.
I have high regard for any of our citizens who are brave enough to run for CC...winners and losers!
Stanford
on Feb 10, 2017 at 3:42 pm
on Feb 10, 2017 at 3:42 pm
Jerry -
+1
Barron Park
on Feb 11, 2017 at 2:27 pm
on Feb 11, 2017 at 2:27 pm
I'm not sure I can add much that hasn't been said, but transit for this parcel is actually quite good. The 22 line is right there, and the 522 stop is very close. Biking to either Cal Ave or San Antonio is an easy, comfortable 10 minute ride on Park Ave.
Ventura
on Feb 11, 2017 at 2:30 pm
on Feb 11, 2017 at 2:30 pm
I also want to remind former PTC commissioner Kate Downing did not want a condo, she wanted a single family house with a yard. Caveat are that she gets to pay the price she wants to pay, not what market dictates, the house has to be over 2,700sf and newer.
Mountain View
on Feb 12, 2017 at 2:36 am
on Feb 12, 2017 at 2:36 am
"Land in Palo Alto is the primary driver of high prices. More density increases the utility of the land and therefore increases its price. More density also increases demand, because developers are more interested in dense building than single family homes."
Your city is literally an example of the mechanism you're describing here being completely incorrect.