News

Palo Alto gets closer to picking new rail design

As city renews its outreach effort, analysis boosts plan to separate rail from roads at Charleston and Meadow

To explain why Palo Alto is about to launch the biggest -- and possibly the most disruptive -- infrastructure project in its history, the city's new consultant on Thursday showed an assembled crowd a video of a SUV speeding toward the railroad tracks and stop just as the gate came down onto its roof.

The vehicle then stopped and, after a few seconds of hesitation, backed up to safety before the train passed.

"Luckily, no one is behind him and he was able to back up before the train," said consultant Etty Mercurio of the firm AECOM, which has been working with numerous Peninsula cities, including Menlo Park, Burlingame and now Palo Alto, to come up with ways to resolve the conflicts between trains and cars.

The video, shot at Burlingame's Broadway crossing, was followed by several other examples of near-misses from the Peninsula. Recently, Mercurio said, she saw cars waiting at the Charleston Road crossing as a Caltrain train passed by. Then, when drivers noticed that another train was set to arrive a minute later, they sped forward to get past the gate before it closes again.

"We want to eliminate that conflict between trains, and vehicles and bicycles and pedestrians," Mercurio said at the meeting. "If we eliminate that conflict, we can eliminate delays, reduce congestion and really improve safety at these at-grade crossings."

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The standoffs between cars and trains are expected to become much more common in the coming years, as Caltrain moves ahead with an electrification project that will send more trains up and down the Peninsula. The number of trains on a weekday is set to increase from 92 to 114, Mercurio said. During peak hours, about 20 trains will move through Palo Alto's 4-mile corridor, or roughly one every three minutes.

"We want to eliminate that conflict between trains, and vehicles and bicycles and pedestrians," Mercurio said. "If we eliminate that conflict, we can eliminate delays, reduce congestion and really improve safety at these at-grade crossings."

More than 120 people attended the Thursday community meeting at Mitchell Park Community Center to learn about the city's plan to address this conflict by physically separating the roads from the rail corridor. Palo Alto is now in the midst of winnowing down its options for "grade separation" at Palo Alto Avenue, Churchill Avenue, Charleston Road and Meadow Drive.

While the city has been talking about grade separation since at least 2009, officials are finally making progress in determining what this would look like at each of the crossings. In April, the council approved the city's $1.3-million contract with AECOM to serve as the lead consultant. Earlier this month, a new citizens group was selected to work with staff and consultants on the project.

After spending much of 2017 soliciting ideas, Palo Alto ended up with a master list of 34 ideas by early this year, said Chief Transportation Official Joshuah Mello. In recent months, the City Council and its Rail Committee winnowed down the list to seven options.

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Most recently, the council eliminated from consideration the idea of doing grade separation at Churchill Avenue after an analysis indicated that doing could impact dozens of properties. Specifically, the council scrapped the "hybrid" option, which would have lowered Churchill Road and raised the tracks over the road. The option would have impacted about 14 properties, according to the study. The "reverse hybrid" option, which involves a raised road and lowered tracks, would have resulted in up to 42 property seizures. It too was tossed from consideration.

The only option now considered for Churchill is simply closing the street to traffic at the rail crossing and making other improvements to compensate for traffic-circulation deficiencies that may result from the closure, Mello said.

At the same time, the idea of raising or lowering the tracks at the two southernmost crossings -- Charleston and Meadow -- remains very much alive. Last week, the Rail Committee considered a study that showed that the "hybrid" option on Charleston could be achieved without any property impacts. At Meadow, which would potentially share the embankment with Charleston, the project would only impact portions of two driveways.

Other options on the table for Meadow and Charleston are a tunnel, a trench and a viaduct for the train -- alternatives that would leave the roads in their current alignment.

At the northernmost crossing, Palo Alto Avenue, the city is considering closing the road in conjunction with other traffic improvements such as widening University Avenue or building an undercrossing for pedestrians and bicyclists at Everett Avenue. Another alternative is placing the roadway under the railroad, much like Menlo Park is planning to do at Ravenswood Avenue.

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The city is also still leaving in the mix the popular idea of digging a citywide deep-bore tunnel, though city officials and most members of the City Council had conceded months ago that such a project would probably be far too expensive to be considered feasible.

During the Thursday meeting, Mercurio went over the various options in greater detail, describing how far the tracks and roads would have to be raised under each alternative and the length of the "shoofly" tracks that would need to be constructed in most designs -- temporary tracks that would likely be built along Alma Street while grade separation is being constructed.

After the presentation, residents were invited to get more details at tables devoted to each crossing (as well as to tunnels and to traffic), where they debated the merits of hybrids versus reverse hybrids and raised concerns relating to privacy impacts, noise and traffic circulation.

Even so, the meeting left many in attendance thirsty for more information. Residents asked about the cost of the various options, a topic that the consultant is still studying (Mercurio said costs will be available at the next meeting, which is scheduled for Nov. 28). One person asked about privacy impacts of trains, which he said should be elevated near Charleston (he was told that soundwalls can be a possible solution).

Another asked about what the project would do to traffic. Mercurio responded that the goal is to maintain the existing traffic patterns through construction phasing.

"Grade separation is very complex and when you go to construction ... the appetite to keep roads open and closed can influence the duration of construction," Mercurio said.

Mello said that once the city narrows down to six ideas, it will be able to devote far more resources to each option, which includes performing traffic studies and creating 3D simulations. After selecting its preferred options, the city plans to move ahead with design work and environmental analysis, which it hopes to complete by 2023. Under this schedule, which Mello described as "ambitious," the project would be complete by 2029.

More information about Palo Alto's grade-separation program is available here.

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Gennady Sheyner
 
Gennady Sheyner covers the City Hall beat in Palo Alto as well as regional politics, with a special focus on housing and transportation. Before joining the Palo Alto Weekly/PaloAltoOnline.com in 2008, he covered breaking news and local politics for the Waterbury Republican-American, a daily newspaper in Connecticut. Read more >>

Follow on Twitter @paloaltoweekly, Facebook and on Instagram @paloaltoonline for breaking news, local events, photos, videos and more.

Palo Alto gets closer to picking new rail design

As city renews its outreach effort, analysis boosts plan to separate rail from roads at Charleston and Meadow

To explain why Palo Alto is about to launch the biggest -- and possibly the most disruptive -- infrastructure project in its history, the city's new consultant on Thursday showed an assembled crowd a video of a SUV speeding toward the railroad tracks and stop just as the gate came down onto its roof.

The vehicle then stopped and, after a few seconds of hesitation, backed up to safety before the train passed.

"Luckily, no one is behind him and he was able to back up before the train," said consultant Etty Mercurio of the firm AECOM, which has been working with numerous Peninsula cities, including Menlo Park, Burlingame and now Palo Alto, to come up with ways to resolve the conflicts between trains and cars.

The video, shot at Burlingame's Broadway crossing, was followed by several other examples of near-misses from the Peninsula. Recently, Mercurio said, she saw cars waiting at the Charleston Road crossing as a Caltrain train passed by. Then, when drivers noticed that another train was set to arrive a minute later, they sped forward to get past the gate before it closes again.

"We want to eliminate that conflict between trains, and vehicles and bicycles and pedestrians," Mercurio said at the meeting. "If we eliminate that conflict, we can eliminate delays, reduce congestion and really improve safety at these at-grade crossings."

The standoffs between cars and trains are expected to become much more common in the coming years, as Caltrain moves ahead with an electrification project that will send more trains up and down the Peninsula. The number of trains on a weekday is set to increase from 92 to 114, Mercurio said. During peak hours, about 20 trains will move through Palo Alto's 4-mile corridor, or roughly one every three minutes.

"We want to eliminate that conflict between trains, and vehicles and bicycles and pedestrians," Mercurio said. "If we eliminate that conflict, we can eliminate delays, reduce congestion and really improve safety at these at-grade crossings."

More than 120 people attended the Thursday community meeting at Mitchell Park Community Center to learn about the city's plan to address this conflict by physically separating the roads from the rail corridor. Palo Alto is now in the midst of winnowing down its options for "grade separation" at Palo Alto Avenue, Churchill Avenue, Charleston Road and Meadow Drive.

While the city has been talking about grade separation since at least 2009, officials are finally making progress in determining what this would look like at each of the crossings. In April, the council approved the city's $1.3-million contract with AECOM to serve as the lead consultant. Earlier this month, a new citizens group was selected to work with staff and consultants on the project.

After spending much of 2017 soliciting ideas, Palo Alto ended up with a master list of 34 ideas by early this year, said Chief Transportation Official Joshuah Mello. In recent months, the City Council and its Rail Committee winnowed down the list to seven options.

Most recently, the council eliminated from consideration the idea of doing grade separation at Churchill Avenue after an analysis indicated that doing could impact dozens of properties. Specifically, the council scrapped the "hybrid" option, which would have lowered Churchill Road and raised the tracks over the road. The option would have impacted about 14 properties, according to the study. The "reverse hybrid" option, which involves a raised road and lowered tracks, would have resulted in up to 42 property seizures. It too was tossed from consideration.

The only option now considered for Churchill is simply closing the street to traffic at the rail crossing and making other improvements to compensate for traffic-circulation deficiencies that may result from the closure, Mello said.

At the same time, the idea of raising or lowering the tracks at the two southernmost crossings -- Charleston and Meadow -- remains very much alive. Last week, the Rail Committee considered a study that showed that the "hybrid" option on Charleston could be achieved without any property impacts. At Meadow, which would potentially share the embankment with Charleston, the project would only impact portions of two driveways.

Other options on the table for Meadow and Charleston are a tunnel, a trench and a viaduct for the train -- alternatives that would leave the roads in their current alignment.

At the northernmost crossing, Palo Alto Avenue, the city is considering closing the road in conjunction with other traffic improvements such as widening University Avenue or building an undercrossing for pedestrians and bicyclists at Everett Avenue. Another alternative is placing the roadway under the railroad, much like Menlo Park is planning to do at Ravenswood Avenue.

The city is also still leaving in the mix the popular idea of digging a citywide deep-bore tunnel, though city officials and most members of the City Council had conceded months ago that such a project would probably be far too expensive to be considered feasible.

During the Thursday meeting, Mercurio went over the various options in greater detail, describing how far the tracks and roads would have to be raised under each alternative and the length of the "shoofly" tracks that would need to be constructed in most designs -- temporary tracks that would likely be built along Alma Street while grade separation is being constructed.

After the presentation, residents were invited to get more details at tables devoted to each crossing (as well as to tunnels and to traffic), where they debated the merits of hybrids versus reverse hybrids and raised concerns relating to privacy impacts, noise and traffic circulation.

Even so, the meeting left many in attendance thirsty for more information. Residents asked about the cost of the various options, a topic that the consultant is still studying (Mercurio said costs will be available at the next meeting, which is scheduled for Nov. 28). One person asked about privacy impacts of trains, which he said should be elevated near Charleston (he was told that soundwalls can be a possible solution).

Another asked about what the project would do to traffic. Mercurio responded that the goal is to maintain the existing traffic patterns through construction phasing.

"Grade separation is very complex and when you go to construction ... the appetite to keep roads open and closed can influence the duration of construction," Mercurio said.

Mello said that once the city narrows down to six ideas, it will be able to devote far more resources to each option, which includes performing traffic studies and creating 3D simulations. After selecting its preferred options, the city plans to move ahead with design work and environmental analysis, which it hopes to complete by 2023. Under this schedule, which Mello described as "ambitious," the project would be complete by 2029.

More information about Palo Alto's grade-separation program is available here.

Comments

Paly Grad
Leland Manor/Garland Drive
on Aug 23, 2018 at 10:34 pm
Paly Grad, Leland Manor/Garland Drive
on Aug 23, 2018 at 10:34 pm

It makes no sense to close the Churchill crossing. Just leave it as it is. Drivers who show a little patience will wait a little longer and then cross Alma. Drivers in a hurry can choose an alternate route.


Anon
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 23, 2018 at 11:36 pm
Anon, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 23, 2018 at 11:36 pm

In the past, many people posting here have opposed grade separation. I'm in favor of it, but, I am concerned that many alternatives are bicycle and pedestrian unfriendly. Locally, San Carlos is a good example of how not to do it. We can do better.


JR
Palo Verde
on Aug 24, 2018 at 7:19 am
JR, Palo Verde
on Aug 24, 2018 at 7:19 am

South Palo Alto residents should insist that whatever solution is chosen for Churchill is also chosen for Charleston and Meadow. That means leave all three open with no changes, tunnel under all three, bridge over all three, or close down all three. South Palo Alto is not a dumping ground for traffic that used to go on Churchill. Meadow is a neighborhood road that should not be turned into a virtual expressway.


commonsense
Registered user
Professorville
on Aug 24, 2018 at 10:32 am
commonsense, Professorville
Registered user
on Aug 24, 2018 at 10:32 am

I sure hope they look at closing University to cars with these reconfigurations. One way Lytton and one way Hamilton makes complete sense. University ave could become a park, planted with trees, cafes, etc. During the current road work on University where entire blocks are being closed for months at a time, there has been no gridlock. It could be awesome


Resident
Community Center
on Aug 24, 2018 at 10:41 am
Resident, Community Center
on Aug 24, 2018 at 10:41 am

@anon
The staff alternative for Meadow/Charleston called “Hybrid” is actually very similar to the wall you see Caltrain sitting on in San Carlos. It is a small dip in the roadway and a large berm, although the consultants and staff have described it as a modest elevation of the tracks. Does anyone who attended the meeting know if visuals were provided so that people could see what that alternative would look like?


long view
Registered user
South of Midtown
on Aug 24, 2018 at 11:53 am
long view, South of Midtown
Registered user
on Aug 24, 2018 at 11:53 am

If Churchill is closed, that traffic would go to Oregon or University crossings, not Charleston and E. Meadow.

At Churchill, I can see the value of closing the crossing to cars. But could it stay open for bikes and pedestrians? With cars blocked from crossing, the bikes and pedestrians could use the full traffic lane to line up to cross, which would allow many to cross at once. Students going to Paly would otherwise need to use embarcadero's crossing.


Greg
Duveneck/St. Francis
on Aug 24, 2018 at 12:30 pm
Greg, Duveneck/St. Francis
on Aug 24, 2018 at 12:30 pm

To "Resident":

The staff presented diagrams of the various alternatives, including elevations, at the meeting. They should soon be on-line at "www.pagradesep.com". However, I don't see them there yet -- I recommend checking back in a few days.

The staff also plans to produce 3D models that I think would better address your questions about how the completed work would look, but they haven't yet.

Greg (a member of the Community Advisory Panel for this project -- read more at pagradesep.com)


Michael H
Registered user
Professorville
on Aug 24, 2018 at 12:43 pm
Michael H, Professorville
Registered user
on Aug 24, 2018 at 12:43 pm

If closing Churchill is considered a viable option why not try an experiment?

Close Churchill for a couple of weeks and see what happens by carefully monitoring other nearby crossings (i.e. Alma, University, Meadow and Charleston) before and then during the closure to see what the data reveals.


senor blogger
Palo Verde
on Aug 24, 2018 at 2:18 pm
senor blogger, Palo Verde
on Aug 24, 2018 at 2:18 pm

Jr,
Your idea of a "Stretchsock" one size fits all is a complete nonstarter.


Ahem
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 24, 2018 at 2:31 pm
Ahem, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 24, 2018 at 2:31 pm

Powerful political and real-estate interests in San Francisco lobbied for and received federal funds to electrify Caltrain so they could more efficiently extract resources from the Peninsula and funnel them to the new Salesforce building in San Francisco.

Federally funded Caltrain electrification and locally funded grade-separation are just one of many manifestation of the colonization of the Peninsula by San Francisco political and business elites.

The British colonial model for global empire applied on a regional scale.






Mike
Professorville
on Aug 24, 2018 at 4:29 pm
Mike, Professorville
on Aug 24, 2018 at 4:29 pm

I would leave the tracks as is, period.

What we need is for BART to have local and express tracks under El Camino and form a loop around the bay area - as an oval. Adding tracks over the Dunbarton Rail Bride or tunnel would be a plus. Start the High Speed Rail in San Jose. This would really serve the public.


chris
University South
on Aug 24, 2018 at 10:48 pm
chris, University South
on Aug 24, 2018 at 10:48 pm

You are embarrassing yourself by talking about running BART underground on the Peninsula. It is child's play to find money for grade separations in Palo Alto for Caltrain compared to the cost of undergrounding BART on the Peninsula.

You may have failed economics and civics.


Ahem
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 24, 2018 at 11:23 pm
Ahem, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 24, 2018 at 11:23 pm

Chris,

San Francisco somehow "found" the money to run Caltrain underground from Forth and Townsend to the new Salesforce building in San Francisco and San Jose somehow "found" the money to run BART underground through San Jose.

How is that there is plenty of money to run these obsolete transportation systems underground through San Francisco and San Jose but not Palo Alto?


Anon
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 25, 2018 at 5:06 am
Anon, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 25, 2018 at 5:06 am

Posted by Ahem, a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood

>> How is that there is plenty of money to run these obsolete transportation systems underground through San Francisco and San Jose but not Palo Alto?

"obsolete" compared to what? Single-occupancy cars? Electrified commuter rail is a far more efficient technology to move people through a right-of-way than cars. (I've posted references previously numerous times.). What is your vision for "modern" (opposite of "obsolete"?) transportation?


pestocat
University South
on Aug 25, 2018 at 9:46 am
pestocat, University South
on Aug 25, 2018 at 9:46 am

Check out the Facebook page for more rail grade crossing information. Add your questions and comments. See Web Link


Me 2
Old Palo Alto
on Aug 25, 2018 at 12:51 pm
Me 2, Old Palo Alto
on Aug 25, 2018 at 12:51 pm

"San Francisco somehow "found" the money to run Caltrain underground from Forth and Townsend to the new Salesforce building"

No they haven't. They built a big basement, but that's it. They are still way short of funding the extension to the Transbay Transit Center.


Paly Grad
Leland Manor/Garland Drive
on Aug 25, 2018 at 1:00 pm
Paly Grad, Leland Manor/Garland Drive
on Aug 25, 2018 at 1:00 pm

In an article from July 2018, the estimated cost for the Caltrain extension is $6 billion! Also the current plan allows for only 8 trains per hour at peak!

"Caltrain has a long-term project to build a tunnel called the Downtown Extension, or DTX, extending its line from Fourth and King in Mission Bay to Transbay Terminal a block away from Market Street. Unfortunately, what is a short tunnel, about two miles of new construction including a long ramp, has exploded in costs: the budget is currently $6 billion. Moreover, the current design for the project is compromised, allowing only eight trains per hour at the peak, a far cry from the 24 trains per hour typical of similar projects in Europe as well as in New York. The blame for this goes squarely on the Transbay Joint Powers Authority."

Source: Web Link


Zhaing
another community
on Aug 25, 2018 at 3:16 pm
Zhaing, another community
on Aug 25, 2018 at 3:16 pm
Ahem
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 25, 2018 at 3:17 pm
Ahem, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 25, 2018 at 3:17 pm

@Me 2,

Well yeah, things are not going according to plan.

With their losses in the 2016 elections San Francisco political elites lost their ability to fund their boondoggles by sucking money out of the country.


still more questions
Midtown
on Aug 26, 2018 at 12:29 pm
still more questions, Midtown
on Aug 26, 2018 at 12:29 pm

Close Churchill? How are kids supposed to get to school?


Me 2
Old Palo Alto
on Aug 26, 2018 at 1:29 pm
Me 2, Old Palo Alto
on Aug 26, 2018 at 1:29 pm

"In an article from July 2018, the estimated cost for the Caltrain extension is $6 billion! "

Holy crap! That makes undergrounding Caltrain in Palo Alto appear.... reasonable...


Reality Check
Registered user
another community
on Aug 27, 2018 at 4:06 am
Reality Check, another community
Registered user
on Aug 27, 2018 at 4:06 am

@Me 2: no, it doesn’t. The $6b cost (under)estimate for the unfunded tunneled SF extension includes a 3-track tunnel between Mission Bay and the downtown Salesforce Transit Center, whose underground mezzanine and 6-track, 3-platform train box would still need to be built out with tracks, platforms, electrification, escalators, elevators (essentially everything) as well as a new below-grade tunnel aligment from south of the 22nd St. station, paralleling and bypassing existing tunnel #1, in order to grade separate 16 St. and Mission Bay Drive .... and building a new Mission Bay station to replace the current surface terminus at 4th & King and a likely reconfiguration of that yard.

So not comparable at all.

Study up on SF Planning’s so-called “Rail Alignment and Benefits (RAB) Study” here:
Web Link


Pro Cyclist
College Terrace
on Aug 27, 2018 at 7:53 am
Pro Cyclist, College Terrace
on Aug 27, 2018 at 7:53 am

This is great news.
I am all for it.


Mawris
Midtown
on Aug 27, 2018 at 4:09 pm
Mawris, Midtown
on Aug 27, 2018 at 4:09 pm

"Powerful political and real-estate interests in San Francisco lobbied for and received federal funds to electrify Caltrain"

More like a powerful political interest in Washington whose husband's construction company will benefit.


Mawris
Midtown
on Aug 27, 2018 at 4:18 pm
Mawris, Midtown
on Aug 27, 2018 at 4:18 pm

"what is a short tunnel, about two miles of new construction including a long ramp, has exploded in costs: the budget is currently $6 billion."

That's the lowball figure being fed to the public. It'll be $18 billion after adding in "cost overruns", c.f. Big Dig and Bay Bridge.


Mawris
Midtown
on Aug 27, 2018 at 4:49 pm
Mawris, Midtown
on Aug 27, 2018 at 4:49 pm

"The only option now considered for Churchill is simply closing the street to traffic at the rail crossing and making other improvements to compensate for traffic-circulation deficiencies that may result from the closure"

I have a brilliant idea for compensating for "traffic circulation deficiencies" at Churchill: DON'T CLOSE THE CROSSING!

Closing the crossing would not benefit pedestrians, bikes or the trains. It would not benefit automobile traffic but would only push it elsewhere. So please explain how this idea is in any way viable.


Resident
Community Center
on Aug 27, 2018 at 5:24 pm
Resident, Community Center
on Aug 27, 2018 at 5:24 pm

@Mawris
Thanks for raising the need to evaluate a fuller range of Churchill alternatives. I am strongly opposed to conventional overpass or underpass separations that would take homes and induce more cars to take that route, but what was driving that option initially, which the city council and staff favored just last year, is the need to respond to a future of more gate down time due to more trains and more cars trying to cross. Neither the council or staff/consultants has even attempted to account for what will happen to all the cars that will be pushed elsewhere if Churchill is closed. Scharff claimed recently that looking at circulation impacts at Embarcadero resulting from a Churchill closure are a “distraction”. That claim is right up there with the mayor’s that we don’t really have traffic problems.
One alternative that I thought was being considered early on was to keep Churchill open, but add a bike and pedestrian underpass there or at around Lowell along with smart signaling. That would free up Churchill for better vehicular flow since the current signals are lengthened often to accommodate the longer time pedestrians need to cross and dynamic signaling would improve flow. This may not be the right solution, but there has not been enough analysis to eliminate it.


Ahem
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 27, 2018 at 6:40 pm
Ahem, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 27, 2018 at 6:40 pm

Closing Churchill is really just a pretend solution but it does have the advantage of being easily reversed and reopened.

Within the next 10 years most of the automotive fleet will be fully electrified. Within the next 15 years most most of the automotive fleet will also have self-driving capability. And, within the next 20 years most of the generation that has waged the war on cars for the last 50 years will have passed on.

Caltrain will make its last run and Churchill can be reopened for the mass transit solution of the future. Future Palo Altans will still have to figure out what to do with the stack-n-pack tenements along the tracks, but at least they won't have to tear down a massive elevated freeway for trains.


Mawris
Midtown
on Aug 27, 2018 at 10:04 pm
Mawris, Midtown
on Aug 27, 2018 at 10:04 pm

"Caltrain will make its last run and Churchill can be reopened for the mass transit solution of the future."

And that will be what, flying trains?

Maybe Elon Musk has flying trains on his ddrawing board.


Nayeli
Midtown
on Aug 27, 2018 at 10:05 pm
Nayeli, Midtown
on Aug 27, 2018 at 10:05 pm

@ long view - You're correct in suspecting that, if closed, the traffic that normally goes through Alma/Churchill will probably divert to University and Oregon.

Unfortunately for everyone, those two are already too terribly congested through long morning and evening commute hours. It would only make things worse than they already are (except for the fact that the mayor was oblivious to it).

I'd prefer a tunnel over a wall any day. The train and train noise already shakes houses near the tracks. CalTrain is bad enough -- but the much-heavier freight trains pass through each day. I cannot imagine any sort of raised platform having benefits that exceed the problems that it will likely cause.


Mawris
Midtown
on Aug 27, 2018 at 10:34 pm
Mawris, Midtown
on Aug 27, 2018 at 10:34 pm

"a future of more gate down time due to more trains and more cars trying to cross."

With Churchill closed the gates would effectively be down 100% of the time. That's counterproductive, a giant step backwards.

In all of this debate no one has explained the benefit of closing Churchill or any other crossing. The downside is myriad: more congestion of automotive traffic at the crossing and more auto traffic on surrounding streets, no benefit to pedestrians, bicyclists, the trains, no improvement in safety, no reduction in suicides-by-train — nothing. I defy anyone to explain the tangible benefit of closing Churchill or any other crossing.

Churchill is a tough nut to crack. The streets are narrow and in close proximity to homes. The neighbors don't want their homes taken by eminent domain and they don't want elevated trains with passengers looking into their back yards. There are technical hurdles associated with trenching or tunneling under Churchill and Caltrain is unlikely to approve such a plan for their trains and tracks. Remember, Palo Alto is not doing this in a vacuum. It does not own the trains, the tracks, the right-of-way or the stations. They are all owned by Caltrain who would have to approve any scheme involving their rail infrastructure.

Given the drawbacks of closing the Churchill crossing, you'd be far better off leaving the crossing as it has been for 150+ years than closing it.


Mawris
Midtown
on Aug 27, 2018 at 10:39 pm
Mawris, Midtown
on Aug 27, 2018 at 10:39 pm

"I'd prefer a tunnel over a wall any day."

How much additional tax are you willing to pay and for how long?

Take the figure that is fed to the public and double or treble it. These public works project always go over their projected costs, c.f. Big Dig and Bay Bridge.

Don't forget the Caltrains that will be hurtling down Alma street in both directions on a shoofly track during construction.


Mawris
Midtown
on Aug 27, 2018 at 11:37 pm
Mawris, Midtown
on Aug 27, 2018 at 11:37 pm

"The train and train noise already shakes houses near the tracks. CalTrain is bad enough -- but the much-heavier freight trains pass through each day."

When you buy a house near railroad tracks, how can you not anticipate this?


Nayeli
Midtown
on Aug 28, 2018 at 10:17 am
Nayeli, Midtown
on Aug 28, 2018 at 10:17 am

@ Mawris - We don't own a house in Palo Alto. However, my point (for those who own or rent) is that a raised platform would make things even worse in terms of noise, eyesore and general "shaking."


Mawris
Midtown
on Aug 29, 2018 at 12:47 am
Mawris, Midtown
on Aug 29, 2018 at 12:47 am

"a raised platform would make things even worse in terms of noise, eyesore and general shaking."

Enough grousing about solutions you don't like. What is your solution for the Churchill crossing? Leaving the crossing as is counts as a solution.

A trench/tunnel cannot be done for engineering reasons. There have been many posts, together with diagrams, explaining why this is so, in threads you've participated in so I'm sure you've seen them. Caltrain would likely not approve it and AECOM would likely not design it.

That leaves:

1. Viaduct (the neighbors hate it)

2. Berm/hybrid a la Holly street (the neighbors hate it)

3. Close Churchill at crossing (no benefit to bikes, pedestrians, trains, safety or suicide risk; forces traffic onto other streets and displaces congestion)

4. Leave crossing as is

Here is a way out of the box idea: close Churchill to through traffic at Embarcadero. This would force traffic onto Embarcadero which is already grade separated.


bob.smith
another community
on Aug 29, 2018 at 3:39 am
bob.smith, another community
on Aug 29, 2018 at 3:39 am

>>>>"What is your solution for the Churchill crossing? "

Make Churchill a one way street (one lane) and make the other lane a bicycle path including an ADA compliant ramp and underpass going under Alma and Caltrain.

Web Link


Pro Cyclist
College Terrace
on Aug 29, 2018 at 8:47 am
Pro Cyclist, College Terrace
on Aug 29, 2018 at 8:47 am

>>>>"What is your solution for the Churchill crossing? "

Close it please. Meadow too.


Mawris
Midtown
on Aug 29, 2018 at 10:14 am
Mawris, Midtown
on Aug 29, 2018 at 10:14 am

"What is your solution for the Churchill crossing?

"Close it please. Meadow too."

You haven't made your case. What is the benefit to bicyclists, pedestrians, auto and truck drivers and trains — everyone who uses these crossings — of closing them? How would closing them be advantageous to all users?

You could take this idea to its fanciful extreme and completely close all Palo Alto streets to automobile traffic. You might like it as a "Pro Cyclist" but you'd have some very unhappy people, residents and businesses alike.


Mawris
Midtown
on Aug 29, 2018 at 10:21 am
Mawris, Midtown
on Aug 29, 2018 at 10:21 am

"Make Churchill a one way street (one lane) and make the other lane a bicycle path including an ADA compliant ramp and underpass going under Alma and Caltrain."

If you build an underpass you've already improved the throughput of ped and bike traffic to and from Paly, so why do you need to close half the street? What's this going to do to the surrounding streets which must absorb more auto traffic because half of Churchill is closed?

An underpass is a good idea. Making Churchill one way is dubious.


Anon
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 29, 2018 at 10:32 am
Anon, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 29, 2018 at 10:32 am

Posted by Mawris, a resident of Midtown

>> You haven't made your case. What is the benefit to bicyclists, pedestrians, auto and truck drivers and trains — everyone who uses these crossings — of closing them? How would closing them be advantageous to all users?

Agreed, mostly. Bicyclists, pedestrians, trains-- yes. Autos -- OK, but we don't need to accommodate more autos because the streets are full already. Trucks-- too bad. If you ask me, let's close -all- streets to trucks bigger than 7-8 tons. There are massive numbers of construction-related trucks on El Camino, causing road damage, and real danger to small cars especially. They are just there because of all the office construction, which we don't need any more of.

OK, I'm veering -slightly- off topic, but, realistically, any rational solution has to be bicycle and pedestrian friendly, or, it will end up creating more traffic and more problems than were solved.


Mawris
Midtown
on Aug 29, 2018 at 11:44 am
Mawris, Midtown
on Aug 29, 2018 at 11:44 am

"any rational solution has to be bicycle and pedestrian friendly"

This point has been made many, many times. It is axiomatic given the proximity of the crossing to a high-school campus.


bob.smith
another community
on Aug 29, 2018 at 11:56 pm
bob.smith, another community
on Aug 29, 2018 at 11:56 pm

>>>>"If you build an underpass you've already improved the throughput of ped and bike traffic to and from Paly, so why do you need to close half the street?"

Churchill is not wide enough to host two lanes of traffic and an ADA legal straight pedestrian ramp.

The only way to build a pedestrian underpass and keep the road fully open it for the city to condemn one of the corner properties to build a zig-zag ramp.

Federal law requires a pedestrian underpass to have a ramp at least 250 feet long.


Mawrix
Midtown
on Aug 30, 2018 at 1:22 am
Mawrix, Midtown
on Aug 30, 2018 at 1:22 am

"The only way to build a pedestrian underpass and keep the road fully open it for the city to condemn one of the corner properties to build a zig-zag ramp."

If it involves taking a residential property it would seem like a non-starter.


Pro Cyclist
College Terrace
on Aug 30, 2018 at 8:09 am
Pro Cyclist, College Terrace
on Aug 30, 2018 at 8:09 am

@Mawris : "" "any rational solution has to be bicycle and pedestrian friendly" … This point has been made many, many times. It is axiomatic .... ""

Not really. There are many other ways most of us use already.
The rail improvements will only make it better no matter how they are implemented. Focus on the larger issues - not the minutia or superfluity.


Anon
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 30, 2018 at 9:12 am
Anon, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 30, 2018 at 9:12 am

Posted by Pro Cyclist, a resident of College Terrace, 56 minutes ago

>> >> @Mawris : "" "any rational solution has to be bicycle and pedestrian friendly" … This point has been made many, many times. It is axiomatic .... ""

>> Not really. There are many other ways most of us use already.
The rail improvements will only make it better no matter how they are implemented. Focus on the larger issues - not the minutia or superfluity.

I have to disagree. That is why I brought it up. In the history of urban design, large unanticipated side effects have happened when transportation infrastructure created barriers. Sometimes the barrier is a physical barrier like train tracks or highways. Sometimes the barrier is a no-go zone for pedestrians because the design creates a security problem for people on foot.

For example, if you create a barrier for pedestrians, the result will be people driving who did not need to before. I've been to places where you can't get across major streets while walking-- you have to drive.

To the planners: please think carefully about what pedestrians will do.


Mawris
Midtown
on Aug 30, 2018 at 12:50 pm
Mawris, Midtown
on Aug 30, 2018 at 12:50 pm

"The rail improvements will only make it better no matter how they are implemented. Focus on the larger issues - not the minutia or superfluity."

The devil is in the details. Maybe you don't have to deal with projects like this if your profession is "cyclist", but this project is full of so many gotchas it isn't funny. You can't gloss over them or turn a blind eye to them on a multimillion-dollar project like this. Anyone with an engineering background knows this.

If you leave the Churchill crossing as it has been for decades, you have a known quantity. You know it can handle peds, bikes, cars, trucks, trains, etc. There is no expense, no shoofly track, no voter approval of funds, no politicking, no taking of residences, no drama, and vehicular traffic has the same trhoughput as it has now.

You can build a bike/ped underpass if you want but figure out a way to do it without kicking someone out of their home.


Greg
Duveneck/St. Francis
on Aug 30, 2018 at 2:10 pm
Greg, Duveneck/St. Francis
on Aug 30, 2018 at 2:10 pm

"Traffic congestion is expected to get worse at all of these locations in the future with additional trains as part of Caltrain’s electrification and potentially high speed rail. This will mean that crossing gates will come
down many more times each day – as much as 45 seconds every 3 minutes impacting traffic and safety."

That quote is from:

Web Link

There is no option to "leave the Churchill crossing as it has been for decades." There will be more trains and it will be harder to get through, and possibly much harder.


Mawris
Midtown
on Aug 30, 2018 at 3:41 pm
Mawris, Midtown
on Aug 30, 2018 at 3:41 pm

"There will be more trains and it will be harder to get through, and possibly much harder."

Maybe yes, maybe no. The promise of more frequent Caltrain service may actually happen, or it may be a line they are feeding to the public to make electrification palatable to citizens. It's going to cost money to operate those trains. Will they have to raise fares and will this impact ridership? We'll see.

This and the whole HSR boondoggle have been filled with lies and cruft they have been feeding the public to make their projects happen. I wouldn't take any promises made by Caltrain or HSR at face value.

What's your solution for grade separating Churchill that won't take homes, doesn't involve a giant structure that the public will hate, and is feasible from an engineering standpoint (that excludes a trench/tunnel at Churchill)?


bob.smith
another community
on Aug 30, 2018 at 11:55 pm
bob.smith, another community
on Aug 30, 2018 at 11:55 pm

Palo Alto's dream trench: Web Link


Sheri
Registered user
Midtown
on Aug 31, 2018 at 2:08 pm
Sheri , Midtown
Registered user
on Aug 31, 2018 at 2:08 pm

@Greg

I might be a little more willing to listen to Connecting Palo Alto if they got they facts straight.

"There are currently six roadways where motorists can cross the railroad tracks in Palo Alto. These intersections, called grade crossings, differ from vehicular intersections because a train, in most cases, cannot safely stop in a timely manner to avoid collisions. Two of the grade crossings cross the tracks below the level of the tracks (at Embarcadero and University) and four of them cross the tracks at the same level (at Charleston, Meadow, Churchill, and Palo Alto Avenue/Alma Street)."

I'm pretty sure Oregon Expwy also crosses underneath the tracks. Kinda hard to miss such a major road.


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