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For supporters of train viaduct, things are starting to look up — again

Rejected option at Churchill Avenue could be back as an alternative for Palo Alto's grade separation effort

The City Council eliminated the train viaduct from consideration in November 2021. On June 20, the council Rail Committee will consider bringing it back. Courtesy city of Palo Alto

Palo Alto's meandering path to choosing new designs for its rail crossings appeared to have hit a milestone in 2021, when the City Council unanimously agreed to drop from consideration the idea of building a train viaduct to cross Churchill Avenue.

Residents near Churchill had broadly opposed the idea of having elevated trains zip along just feet from their yards and over their homes, and the debate ultimately came down to a choice between closing the street entirely or creating an underpass for cars with ramps that would allow turns onto Alma Street.

A city survey showed the viaduct to be the least popular option among respondents. And a specially appointed citizens committee known as the Expanded Community Advisory Panel did not recommend the viaduct, which would cost between $300 million and $400 million to construct and would raise the tracks about 20 feet.

"The viaduct is the most expensive. It's the ugliest, and it requires some concessions from Caltrain and stuff like that," former council member Eric Filseth said at a November 2021 meeting, just before the council unanimously voted to remove the viaduct from consideration.

But while this option remains off the table, for viaduct supporters things are starting to look up. Next week, the council's Rail Committee will consider placing the train viaduct back on the table, a reversal that would both be highly unusual and politically tricky.

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The City Council on June 12, however, revised its evaluation criteria for the redesign of Palo Alto's rail crossings in a way that opened the door to the viaduct option. Instead of committing the city to "minimizing" visual impacts of grade separations (the configuration of roads and train tracks so they don't intersect), the criteria now calls for merely "considering" visual impacts when making a decision.

The subtle revision could raise the viaduct's profile, given that in its low ranking among the options was caused in part by its poor score for "minimize visual changes along the corridor."

It also helps that some of the council members elected last fall are less averse to considering the elevated structure than those whom they replaced. Council member Julie Lythcott-Haims said she was open to the viaduct option during her campaign last year, while council member Vicki Veenker, who serves on the Rail Committee, sounded noncommittal during the April 26 discussion of the evaluation criteria.

"Even if we don't have the viaduct currently on the table, who knows how the winds blow?" Veenker said.

Chief Transportation Official Philip Kamhi wrote in a new report that the city has heard concerns from members of the Palo Alto Bicycle and Pedestrian Advisory Committee and from the Palo Alto Unified School District about pedestrian crossings of the railroad tracks and requested another review of the viaduct option. Kamhi also noted that it's appropriate to revisit alternatives given the recent changes to the evaluation criteria.

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"The additional measures in the evaluation criteria include reviewing impacts such as connectedness, corridor travel times, pedestrian and bicycle circulation during and after construction, traffic inducement, sustainability, sea-level rise, utility relocation, long-term maintenance costs, and visual and privacy considerations along the corridor," Kamhi wrote.

Local resident Adrian Brandt is among those who support the viaduct. During the Rail Committee's discussion of the new evaluation criteria in April, Brandt urged the council to consider objective criteria for bicycle and pedestrian connectivity – measures such as the number of turning movements that are interrupted or preserved.

"Under those criteria, I think the viaduct would do a lot better," Brandt told the Rail Committee.

Even so, the viaduct may have a hard time overcoming council and community opposition. Mayor Lydia Kou voted against the revised evaluation criteria, saying she opposes changing "minimize" to "consider" when it comes to the visual impacts of grade separation options.

"With potentially the viaduct being discussed and brought back as an alternative, I think the stronger language is needed to minimize visual and privacy impacts," Kou said.

The choices currently on the table

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So far, the Churchill rail crossing is the only one for which the council has selected a preferred alternative: a partial underpass that would submerge Churchill under the tracks west of Alma, allow cars to turn on Alma and include new underpasses for bicycles and pedestrians. That could change if the Rail Committee votes next week to bring the viaduct back for consideration and if the full council endorses that recommendation.

The city is also considering three options for the Meadow Drive and Charleston Road crossings, which are being examined in tandem: a trench, a "hybrid" that combines raised tracks with lowered roads, and an underpass for cars. The Rail Committee will debate on June 20 whether to shrink the list to two by scrapping the trench idea.

According to engineering estimates, the trench option would cost between $800 million and $950 million -- well more than the other two options. The hybrid has an estimated price tag between $190 million and $230 million, while the underpass is projected to cost between $340 million and $420 million.

It's not just the costs that make the trench a tough sell. Kamhi noted that Caltrain is currently exploring the potential for four-track segments along the corridor to allow trains to pass one another. According to Kamhi, Caltrain has indicated a strong need for the four-tracking segment north of Mountain View Caltrain station, which will likely impact the crossings in south Palo Alto.

"The Rail Committee has leaned toward pausing further analysis of the trench alternative, mainly due to its high cost and its feasibility challenges in accommodating and addressing the four tracking needs of Caltrain," Kamhi wrote.

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Gennady Sheyner
 
Gennady Sheyner covers the City Hall beat in Palo Alto as well as regional politics, with a special focus on housing and transportation. Before joining the Palo Alto Weekly/PaloAltoOnline.com in 2008, he covered breaking news and local politics for the Waterbury Republican-American, a daily newspaper in Connecticut. Read more >>

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For supporters of train viaduct, things are starting to look up — again

Rejected option at Churchill Avenue could be back as an alternative for Palo Alto's grade separation effort

Palo Alto's meandering path to choosing new designs for its rail crossings appeared to have hit a milestone in 2021, when the City Council unanimously agreed to drop from consideration the idea of building a train viaduct to cross Churchill Avenue.

Residents near Churchill had broadly opposed the idea of having elevated trains zip along just feet from their yards and over their homes, and the debate ultimately came down to a choice between closing the street entirely or creating an underpass for cars with ramps that would allow turns onto Alma Street.

A city survey showed the viaduct to be the least popular option among respondents. And a specially appointed citizens committee known as the Expanded Community Advisory Panel did not recommend the viaduct, which would cost between $300 million and $400 million to construct and would raise the tracks about 20 feet.

"The viaduct is the most expensive. It's the ugliest, and it requires some concessions from Caltrain and stuff like that," former council member Eric Filseth said at a November 2021 meeting, just before the council unanimously voted to remove the viaduct from consideration.

But while this option remains off the table, for viaduct supporters things are starting to look up. Next week, the council's Rail Committee will consider placing the train viaduct back on the table, a reversal that would both be highly unusual and politically tricky.

The City Council on June 12, however, revised its evaluation criteria for the redesign of Palo Alto's rail crossings in a way that opened the door to the viaduct option. Instead of committing the city to "minimizing" visual impacts of grade separations (the configuration of roads and train tracks so they don't intersect), the criteria now calls for merely "considering" visual impacts when making a decision.

The subtle revision could raise the viaduct's profile, given that in its low ranking among the options was caused in part by its poor score for "minimize visual changes along the corridor."

It also helps that some of the council members elected last fall are less averse to considering the elevated structure than those whom they replaced. Council member Julie Lythcott-Haims said she was open to the viaduct option during her campaign last year, while council member Vicki Veenker, who serves on the Rail Committee, sounded noncommittal during the April 26 discussion of the evaluation criteria.

"Even if we don't have the viaduct currently on the table, who knows how the winds blow?" Veenker said.

Chief Transportation Official Philip Kamhi wrote in a new report that the city has heard concerns from members of the Palo Alto Bicycle and Pedestrian Advisory Committee and from the Palo Alto Unified School District about pedestrian crossings of the railroad tracks and requested another review of the viaduct option. Kamhi also noted that it's appropriate to revisit alternatives given the recent changes to the evaluation criteria.

"The additional measures in the evaluation criteria include reviewing impacts such as connectedness, corridor travel times, pedestrian and bicycle circulation during and after construction, traffic inducement, sustainability, sea-level rise, utility relocation, long-term maintenance costs, and visual and privacy considerations along the corridor," Kamhi wrote.

Local resident Adrian Brandt is among those who support the viaduct. During the Rail Committee's discussion of the new evaluation criteria in April, Brandt urged the council to consider objective criteria for bicycle and pedestrian connectivity – measures such as the number of turning movements that are interrupted or preserved.

"Under those criteria, I think the viaduct would do a lot better," Brandt told the Rail Committee.

Even so, the viaduct may have a hard time overcoming council and community opposition. Mayor Lydia Kou voted against the revised evaluation criteria, saying she opposes changing "minimize" to "consider" when it comes to the visual impacts of grade separation options.

"With potentially the viaduct being discussed and brought back as an alternative, I think the stronger language is needed to minimize visual and privacy impacts," Kou said.

The choices currently on the table

So far, the Churchill rail crossing is the only one for which the council has selected a preferred alternative: a partial underpass that would submerge Churchill under the tracks west of Alma, allow cars to turn on Alma and include new underpasses for bicycles and pedestrians. That could change if the Rail Committee votes next week to bring the viaduct back for consideration and if the full council endorses that recommendation.

The city is also considering three options for the Meadow Drive and Charleston Road crossings, which are being examined in tandem: a trench, a "hybrid" that combines raised tracks with lowered roads, and an underpass for cars. The Rail Committee will debate on June 20 whether to shrink the list to two by scrapping the trench idea.

According to engineering estimates, the trench option would cost between $800 million and $950 million -- well more than the other two options. The hybrid has an estimated price tag between $190 million and $230 million, while the underpass is projected to cost between $340 million and $420 million.

It's not just the costs that make the trench a tough sell. Kamhi noted that Caltrain is currently exploring the potential for four-track segments along the corridor to allow trains to pass one another. According to Kamhi, Caltrain has indicated a strong need for the four-tracking segment north of Mountain View Caltrain station, which will likely impact the crossings in south Palo Alto.

"The Rail Committee has leaned toward pausing further analysis of the trench alternative, mainly due to its high cost and its feasibility challenges in accommodating and addressing the four tracking needs of Caltrain," Kamhi wrote.

Comments

Silver Linings
Registered user
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jun 14, 2023 at 10:00 am
Silver Linings, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 10:00 am

I like that Charleston underpass proposal.

Viaducts divide communities and once there, you can’t take them back.

This is one of the wealthiest communities. Projects are financed over thirty years. Isn’t there someone willing to spearhead a tunnel or covered trench, with unbroken dedicated bike and (separated) small EV paths from one end of town to the other? It would permanently shift the dynamic in favor of bikes and small EVs for getting around town. And it would be unifying.

I realize the logistics are hard but we have residents who have met harder challenges.


Dee
Registered user
Palo Verde
on Jun 14, 2023 at 10:52 am
Dee, Palo Verde
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 10:52 am

What about separating the two directions of Alma and putting the overpass in between? It would make the overpass further from the homes, and a bike lane could go under the overpass, assuming construction would allow.


Screeedek
Registered user
Stanford
on Jun 14, 2023 at 10:56 am
Screeedek, Stanford
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 10:56 am

Either way, some people are going lose their homes through eminent domain. Sorry folks, but there is just no getting around that if we want to welcome the 21 st Century.


Neighbor
Registered user
Fairmeadow
on Jun 14, 2023 at 12:33 pm
Neighbor, Fairmeadow
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 12:33 pm

"A city survey showed the viaduct to be the least popular option among respondents."

Why is this being resurrected? In addition to the visual blight, it would spread noise over a wider area and be a concern in case of an earthquake. The houses that back up to the train tracks would now have a giant viaduct looming over them. These are not the richest people in Palo Alto, so why dump this on neighbors who may not have other options?


pb
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jun 14, 2023 at 2:16 pm
pb , Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 2:16 pm

Defening Noise. My place and other structures on Alma St. are currently the CalTrain "sound wall" for homes behind us in Old Palo Alto. If the tracks are elevated, the deafening noise the trains make will spill over our roofs and reach back into Old Palo Alto, perhaps to as far as 101.
I do not believe this sound issue has been studied in the context of elevated tracks, but as an important quality of life matter, it should be. pb


Steve Eittreim
Registered user
Duveneck/St. Francis
on Jun 14, 2023 at 3:35 pm
Steve Eittreim, Duveneck/St. Francis
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 3:35 pm

I see the idea of a Caltrain viaduct down the length our city as a one-time opportunity to change our city for the better. We have always been divided by the train tracks, east side from west, since our city grew up with the Railroad 150 years ago. With the maturing of Palo Alto, with property values akin to Manhattan properties, we are a very different city today. To elevate the train tracks above ground and visibly and physically connect east to west, we can greatly improve our city and our residents lifestyles. Homes along the tracks, instead of looking at tracks with trains whooshing by, will see across their backyards through to the other side of the city and the elevated trains will be visually and audibly far less intrusive than they are today. This will be the case because sound barriers along the viaduct will deflect sound up and away instead of horizontally parallel to the ground. Appropriate green shielding can be planted to do the same for a visual barrier. The 6-mile by 100-ft ground space could offer space for bike and pedestrian pathways and other green additions for our city.


Me 2
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jun 14, 2023 at 3:58 pm
Me 2, Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 3:58 pm

If we are reopening options, then let's add undergrounding back as an option too.

BTW, if we're going to be in the 21st century, why are we focused on 18th century technology?


Richard
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jun 14, 2023 at 4:52 pm
Richard, Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 4:52 pm

By the time the council makes a decision on crossings trains will be outdated and we will be using transporters like in Star Trek. Dither, dither, dither. Beam me up to San Francisco.


Cedric de La Beaujardiere
Registered user
Barron Park
on Jun 14, 2023 at 5:03 pm
Cedric de La Beaujardiere, Barron Park
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 5:03 pm

For Viaducts "No acquisition of private properties will be required". See Web Link dated Jan 2021 on pages 2 (Charleston/Meadow (M/C)) and 5 (Churchill), row F "Minimize right-of-way acquisition."

Viaducts have the shortest & least disruptive construction. They are the only M/C option for which "New railroad tracks can be built without a temporary track"; all other options require building temporary tracks on Alma (page 2, row D), and "...Construction would last for approximately 2 years" vs 4 to 6 years for the others (page 3, row J).

The noise and vibration analysis is available at Web Link It showed all of the grade separation options, including the viaduct, reduce the noise relative to the current conditions. See for example the summary table on page 20 "Table 5-1 Noise Source Changes by Alternative" or the more detailed numbers on page 23 "Table 5-4 Predicted Noise Reduction Relative to Existing Condition by Alternative (dBA)".

While "engine noise from hybrid and viaduct alternatives could increase slightly since the increased elevation of the rail path may reduce the effectiveness of first row shielding at second row homes," these first row homes only reduce the noise by 5 dB, whereas the elevated options would have sound barriers which decrease the sound by 12 dBA. The net effect is a reduction of noise for all rows and especially for the first row of homes.

Modern Viaducts reduce vibration the most. See page 24 "Table 6-1 Potential Change in Ground-Borne Vibration by Alternative" where it says the Viaducts have "Significant reduction for homes both east and west" and for M/C that significant reduction is "slightly better for west." Other options have "Little", "No change" or "Slight reduction".

All referenced docs written before Charleston roundabout plan which increases cost & impacts.


Tom Martin
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jun 14, 2023 at 5:17 pm
Tom Martin, Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 5:17 pm

A rail viaduct may be more expensive than the hybrid crossing, but it would be worth it to keep Palo Alto a desirable place to live for the next 100 years and more. The Churchill hybrid alternative in particular is illogical and has gotten worse with the latest revision. It makes Churchill nearly unusable as an auto crossing and will only frustrate drivers. It will make residents wonder how PA council members could have made such a terrible decision.
The viaduct offers the benefit of new bike and walking paths and open green space. The viaduct avoids all the extra costs created by the latest version of the hybrid plan. During construction, the viaduct lets us continue to use the crossings the way we are used to doing with minimum interruption or delays. And it avoids the costs of eminent domain and “negotiations” which could cause legal delays and drive the cost up more.
The viaduct is a simple, clean, and attractive solution which leaves the city much more interconnected than the hybrid plans.
Palo Alto needs to hire an unbiased Civil Engineering firm to assess the hybrid and viaduct plans and give a new estimate of the costs of each plan and related risks.


Cedric de La Beaujardiere
Registered user
Barron Park
on Jun 14, 2023 at 5:36 pm
Cedric de La Beaujardiere, Barron Park
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 5:36 pm

The tunnel options were rightly rejected for several reasons, the largest being the $1 to 2 Billion price tag. That's Billion with a "B", as in Bonkers.

Why bring back the Viaduct option? Because it is better than all the other options.

Look at how the Meadow/Charleston Hybrid alternative has attempted to address its shortfalls by creating other huge messes including eminent domain acquisitions impacting three homes (see the green patches in this article's slideshow below the section title "The choices currently on the table", specifically clicking on the right arrow to move through the slideshow, the 2nd and 8th images). In addition to its eminent domain issues, this 2-lane roundabout is very dangerous for bikes and pedestrians and a big complicated detour for motorists.

As I noted at the end of my comment above, the documents I referenced were all created before this addition of the Charleston roundabout to the Hybrid option (called hybrid because it both raises tracks and lowers road). But these documents as well as additional fact sheets, animations and renderings of the options under consideration at that time can be obtained from Web Link on that page or by clicking on the "Resources" tab at the top of the page.

I should add that in the Noise and Vibration study (Web Link ) pages 6-11 provide a clear primer on how noise is measured, perceived, propagated, and reduced. Among the useful information:
1. A 3 dB increase corresponds to a doubling of the sound energy
2. A 10 dB increase corresponds to a doubling of the sound perceived
3. Linear-sources of sound like a train moving on a rail line decreases at a rate of 3 dB for each doubling of the distance


4good
Registered user
another community
on Jun 14, 2023 at 7:00 pm
4good, another community
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 7:00 pm

Clever headline! Thanks for keeping us informed.


Donald
Registered user
South of Midtown
on Jun 14, 2023 at 7:01 pm
Donald, South of Midtown
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 7:01 pm

Thank you, Cedric, for reminding us that the noise issue has been studied and dispensed. Modern electric trains can be very quiet, and with grade separation there will be no train horns.

The viaduct option is clearly the best for traffic circulation, with all turning movements preserved. Pedestrians and bicyclists have no circuitous detours, no ups and downs and no sketchy street crossings. The downside is getting a waiver from Caltrain for the maximum slope to allow for 2% rather than their usual 1%. Keeping the train elevated across the whole city would mean that the 2% would only occur once at each end, which might make it more palatable to Caltrain and Union Pacific.

As far as a viaduct "dividing the city" I would like to have someone explain to me how a viaduct would divide us more than the current fenced-off train tracks already divide us.


PaloAltoVoter
Registered user
Crescent Park
on Jun 14, 2023 at 8:47 pm
PaloAltoVoter, Crescent Park
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 8:47 pm

How is this even possible? Council already voted to remove it - how can the rail committee reconsider it when the council has already spoken? A Citizen group worked for months and recommended rempoving it. Major step backwards on a very long difficult process. If Council starts reversing its decisions on train crossings it will never conclude this process.

Massive waste of time and just spending more dollars when a thoughtful decision was made. Once people hear this is back on the table they will return to fight it again.


Greg Brail
Registered user
Duveneck/St. Francis
on Jun 14, 2023 at 9:26 pm
Greg Brail, Duveneck/St. Francis
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 9:26 pm

It's fascinating to see that discussion of the viaduct option is once again on the town agenda.

I served on the XCAP and on the CAP, and in the end (frustratingly) we could not agreed on a recommendation for Charleston and Meadow. However, we did NOT "reject the viaduct" as described above.

In fact, if we specifically consider only Charleston and Meadow, the viaduct has many advantages:

* There would be no impact on private property
* There would be no impact on the creeks
* Bicycles and pedestrians can pass under the viaduct at many points
* Since AECOM figured out how to build it in the space between the current tracks and Alma, it would take less time to construct (by years) and have less impact on the neighborhood during construction than other options

The main disadvantages of the viaduct are:

* It is more expensive than any option other than the trench and the tunnel
* It will be easier to see than other alternatives
* Many people believe that it would be noisier
* Many people will be angry, no matter what else I said above, if a viaduct is selected

This stuff can be found in the XCAP report. For instance, what I wrote above comes from page 101:

Web Link

I want to specifically also drill down on noise.

First, the city commissioned a noise report that showed that the noise impact of the viaduct would be pretty minimal. However, the council and mayor at the time persisted in their belief that the viaduct would be noisy.

Also remember that any grade separation eliminates train horns at crossings, which are a huge proportion of the noise of the trains. Given the terrible safety record of the Charleston crossing (one of the worst in the country) it's highly unlikely IMO that we'd ever get permission for a "quiet zone" there.


Stew
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jun 14, 2023 at 9:33 pm
Stew, Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 9:33 pm

Avoid the Disruption of Hybrid Crossings

As the discussion regarding hybrid rail crossings in Palo Alto continues, it seems to me that the viaduct strategy might be a lot less disruptive for the city than the hybrid crossings, both during construction and beyond. It is very likely that the straightforward approach of installing pylons and a viaduct from one end of the city to the other could actually be accomplished more quickly than building 3-4 separate and complex hybrid crossings. For one thing, the hybrid crossings will require some eminent domain actions, and legal back and forths on that alone can slow construction. Auto traffic on Alma and at the current ground level rail crossings will likely be disrupted for 1-2 years with the hybrid approach, while viaduct construction would require minimal auto traffic disruption. Constructing hybrid crossings involves having to deal with underground water issues forever, not an issue with the viaduct. And a hybrid strategy also involves rail traffic use of what are known as ‘’shoo fly” temporary tracks, slowing train traffic and causing auto crossing delays for months. “Degree of Disruption” should be another “Evaluation Criterion” when comparing these two quite different options.


Donald
Registered user
South of Midtown
on Jun 14, 2023 at 9:51 pm
Donald, South of Midtown
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 9:51 pm

I disagree that "Degree of Disruption" should be a decision factor. If you want no disruption then you do nothing, which is not acceptable. We need to accept some disruption in the short term to get a solution that will be acceptable for the decades to come. We need to take a long-term view here, which is not something that elected officials are good at.


Bystander
Registered user
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jun 14, 2023 at 10:21 pm
Bystander, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 10:21 pm

I cant help feeling this is another delay tactic. It reminds me of the same 10 year discussions about the footbridge to replace the tunnel at 101.

There is no ideal solution. We cannot have a rollercoaster. We have the traintracks dividing the City already as well as Oregon Expressway. A viaduct would actually provide space underneath for other purposes such as bike paths, local public transit or some new technology that's just around the corner.

Can we just get this done without losing time and the value of the money already set aside which will not go up with inflation.


Alice Schaffer Smith
Registered user
Downtown North
on Jun 14, 2023 at 10:41 pm
Alice Schaffer Smith, Downtown North
Registered user
on Jun 14, 2023 at 10:41 pm

Trains are the answer to our traffic and pollution. After 3 weeks in Japan, traveling on clean, quiet trains, which travel both underground and on viaducts , making far less noise than the noise of old train whistles and the clunky trains we have here, I understood the advantage of investing in workable solutions. I do not recall more than a few level crossings on the many trains I took. What we need to do is concentrate on modern trains which are themselves silent. I urge fixing this problem sooner and investing in quiet-bedded trains. With our low water-table, I assume that a viaduct is a better option…. Just do something


Local news junkie
Registered user
Charleston Meadows
on Jun 15, 2023 at 6:15 am
Local news junkie, Charleston Meadows
Registered user
on Jun 15, 2023 at 6:15 am

My neighbors and I don’t want a 20-foot-tall cement structure towering over our houses. But who cares? We only live in lowly South Palo Alto. Maybe we should sucede and become the town of Eichlerville.


Leslie York
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jun 15, 2023 at 7:25 am
Leslie York, Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jun 15, 2023 at 7:25 am

Here are Union Pacific's grade specifications. I don't know if Caltrain's specifications are any different.

Web Link

If a viaduct is chosen and the plan is to repurpose the abandoned roadbed, CPA will need to negotiate with Caltrain to lease that land.


BGordon
Registered user
Midtown
on Jun 15, 2023 at 10:01 am
BGordon, Midtown
Registered user
on Jun 15, 2023 at 10:01 am

A viaduct would mean less horn noise and fewer suicides. There would be space below for pedestrians, bikes, shops, gardens, etc. Elevated trains work well in many places in Europe and Asia. They can be attractive and built to manage sound and sight lines.


Mondoman
Registered user
Green Acres
on Jun 15, 2023 at 11:23 am
Mondoman, Green Acres
Registered user
on Jun 15, 2023 at 11:23 am

Isn't a viaduct made of solid dirt/concrete, or are we talking about a raised steel structure like the EL in Chicago?

In any case, with train ridership down dramatically and SF in a self-induced business depression, why not just keep the crossings as they are? No giant "border wall", no eminent domain, current manageable traffic impacts, no extra cost. What's not to like?

If more trains magically start appearing 20 or 30 years from now, we can deal with that then.


Stew
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jun 15, 2023 at 1:26 pm
Stew, Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jun 15, 2023 at 1:26 pm

A Whole New "Look and Feel" for our historic Rail Corridor

The current rail corridor through many of the Peninsula’s cities, including Palo Alto, is certainly unattractive and unappealing. Now, for our city, envision a nicely-landscaped green space running from Menlo Park to Mountain View, with 6 miles of bike ways and walkways for recreation, socialization and commuting. Maybe a coffee shop along the way for refreshments, add some water features, art/sculptures, etc. No fancy and expensive hybrid crossings, no risks of train and people fatalities, and turning the blighted corridor as it is now into a multi-purpose rail, auto crossing, open space and visually attractive new major asset for all Palo Altans.


Donald
Registered user
South of Midtown
on Jun 15, 2023 at 2:54 pm
Donald, South of Midtown
Registered user
on Jun 15, 2023 at 2:54 pm

Caltrain will be increasing the number of trains per hour when electrification is complete - this is part of their funding requirements. It doesn't matter how many people are using the trains now relative to before, they WILL be running more trains and causing more traffic disruption. Ignoring this is not an acceptable solution.


Me 2
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jun 15, 2023 at 3:48 pm
Me 2, Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jun 15, 2023 at 3:48 pm

"Caltrain will be increasing the number of trains per hour when electrification is complete"

Not with the impending fiscal cliff. Soon there will be only one train an hour, if any. With our existing land-use policies, we won't have enough density in the next 50 years to support frequent train service.

"If you build it they willl come" only works in the movies.

And the original impetus for grade separation, HSR, is dead.


staying home
Registered user
Crescent Park
on Jun 15, 2023 at 4:08 pm
staying home, Crescent Park
Registered user
on Jun 15, 2023 at 4:08 pm

I am very PRO Viaduct. Build one the length of the peninsula if possible. We are a city that needs viable solution for East/West cross town traffic. Elevating the train tracks is a strong idea: eliminates the need to eminent domain any private property, solves the problem of grade separation, and can be done in the existing space occupied by the tracks. Noise is already an issue, I live 20 blocks away and can hear the train horns.


MyFeelz
Registered user
another community
on Jun 15, 2023 at 7:52 pm
MyFeelz, another community
Registered user
on Jun 15, 2023 at 7:52 pm

When I was very young my parents dragged our family to a small suburb of a large city that had elevated trains. To get to school we had to walk under the "vie duck". I never knew what a "vie duck" was but it was obsolete as soon as it was built because THAT vie duck was supposed to accommodate freight trains, and agriculture died in the years it took to plan and build this monstrosity. And it was crumbling. Good thing no freight trains rolled over it. Good chance it would have collapsed under the weight. Forget this vie duck. We should be working on personal solar hovercrafts for travel. And we WILL. Just as soon as the city wastes billions on more planned obsolescence.


Leslie York
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jun 15, 2023 at 8:00 pm
Leslie York, Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jun 15, 2023 at 8:00 pm

Caltrain can run as many trains as they want, but if there aren't enough fare-paying passengers on board those trains to cover the cost of operating them, their vision of multiple trains per hour will evaporate.


Mondoman
Registered user
Green Acres
on Jun 16, 2023 at 5:06 am
Mondoman, Green Acres
Registered user
on Jun 16, 2023 at 5:06 am

@Donald
My understanding is that Caltrain's increased train number after electrification only amounted to a 5-10% increase without high speed rail. That's easily manageable without changes to at least the two southern PA crossings.
Seems like no action on these crossings has no practical downside and lots of benefits.


Paly Grad
Registered user
Leland Manor/Garland Drive
on Jun 16, 2023 at 10:45 am
Paly Grad, Leland Manor/Garland Drive
Registered user
on Jun 16, 2023 at 10:45 am

Does anyone know if the City of Palo Alto and Caltrain have scheduled any meetings yet?


pb
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jun 16, 2023 at 11:56 am
pb , Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jun 16, 2023 at 11:56 am

Deafening Noise #2. What the commisioned sound study seems to ignore is just how much further train noise will spread into Old Palo Alto, Southgate, Evergreen and College Terrace neighborhoods, with the Caltrain tracks being elevated. The study seems to be limited to impacts on the first two rows of homes back from the tracks, when it should have included sound level increases reaching out blocks, to 101 or at least to Middlefield Road and El Camino. Furthermore, the study glosses over the fact of, and impact of, very loud and unmuffled diesel engined freight trains continuing to run day and night on the Caltrain tracks. How far will these diesel noise sources reach if the tracks are elevated? No one knows, because it is not addressed in the report. Again, this is a quality of life issue and it should be completely studied before any decisions are reached. pb


Leslie York
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jun 16, 2023 at 8:41 pm
Leslie York, Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jun 16, 2023 at 8:41 pm

"this is a quality of life issue and it should be completely studied before any decisions are reached."

CPA has been "studying" grade separation for at least 10 years with three different engineering firms; now you want to study it even more? That will add, what, another 10 years to the project? Another acoustical study will give you a dBa figure. What will you do with that figure? Such a study would be meaningless anyway before Caltrain starts running electric EMU's which will be quieter than diesel.

The late Dick Blum (husband of Dianne Feinstein) was a major HSR contractor who was making campaign donations to Newsom and possibly to Jerry Brown and der Gubernator to keep the HSR project alive. Newsom scaled it back to run between Merced and Bakersfield. Who knows if the project has any more impetus if Dick Blum's campaign donations have dried up? Getting HSR as far as Gilroy requires construction of a 13-mile rail tunnel through the Pacheco Pass near the San Andreas fault.

My point is, will HSR ever make it as far as the peninsula and will Caltrain ramp up its train schedule in the face of declining ridership, or is all this so much vaporware? These are fair questions. People have learned to work remotely since the pandemic, cutting into Caltrain ridership.


Cedric de La Beaujardiere
Registered user
Barron Park
on Jun 17, 2023 at 5:40 am
Cedric de La Beaujardiere, Barron Park
Registered user
on Jun 17, 2023 at 5:40 am

All of the studied grade separation options, including the viaduct, will cut by more than half the current peak and overall average daily train sound (see table 5-4 of Web Link ).

@pb the noise analysis does address the elevation of the train, the diesel-powered freight, and the coming conversion of commuter trains from diesel to EMUs. See pages 13, 15-16, 20-21.

While raising the tracks for the Hybrid or Viaduct loses the first row of houses' partial sound insulation of 5dB, this is more than compensated for by the addition of sound walls which reduce sound by 12 dB, cutting the noise by more than half, thus benefiting especially the first row (which have no shielding now) and all subsequent rows of houses.

Further, though the study focuses on the first few rows of houses as these are the ones most affected by the rail design choices, it notes that with every doubling of the distance from a moving train, its sound energy is reduced by 3db or halved. I'm not a sound engineer but from what I infer from the study, the 8th row or so of houses would hear half as much sound as the first row, and the first row will hear less than half what they hear today. Thus, your fears of an increased sound being propagated by the elevated structure to great distances in Palo Alto are not based in fact nor in science and are in direct contradiction to the study's conclusions.


Cedric de La Beaujardiere
Registered user
Barron Park
on Jun 17, 2023 at 5:41 am
Cedric de La Beaujardiere, Barron Park
Registered user
on Jun 17, 2023 at 5:41 am

@Mondoman, who asked "Isn't a viaduct made of solid dirt/concrete, or are we talking about a raised steel structure like the EL in Chicago?"

Neither. The viaduct is raised on a modern concrete structure on pylons with open space below it. So it is open below like the "El" but it would not be noisy like the "El" probably is. See the quote from page 16 of the noise study I linked above:

"while some older metal rail viaduct and bridge structures tend to radiate significant additional noise due to structural resonance during train pass-by events, newer more modern viaduct structures built mostly from reinforce concrete have greater mass and internal damping properties that would greatly reduce noise generated by structural resonance to a less than significant levels." See as well my reply above to @pb.

The Viaduct options are raised up to a max of 20' over the roads, but they are open underneath, raised on pylons for about 97% and 98% of their length for Churchill and Charleston/Meadow (C/M), respectively. In contrast, the Hybrid solution is raised 15' above existing grade but is on a vertical wall and is closed underneath. So the real "dividing wall" is the Hybrid solution.

In addition, at C/M the viaduct would actually be 25' further west away from the back yards on Park, and so thanks to it's greater distance is visually lower and less towering over than the Hybrid. For some visualizations of what this would look at, take a look at the fact sheets at Web Link and for the viaduct specifically at Web Link


Leslie York
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jun 17, 2023 at 7:15 am
Leslie York, Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jun 17, 2023 at 7:15 am

The drawing Cedric linked to shows a two-track viaduct. Will the actual viaduct have four tracks for HSR or two?


Cedric de La Beaujardiere
Registered user
Barron Park
on Jun 17, 2023 at 8:40 am
Cedric de La Beaujardiere, Barron Park
Registered user
on Jun 17, 2023 at 8:40 am

@Leslie York all of the studied and estimated options are for 2 tracks, which would serve both Caltrain and HSR, assuming it makes it to the peninsula.

There is an open question of whether Caltrain will require passing tracks in Palo Alto which could lead to 4 tracks in some places. For a long time, the city has been asking Caltrain to clarify this question so that it can plan appropriately. I believe they are still waiting for a definitive answer.

If the HSR comes to SF, it will only travel on the peninsula at a max of 110mph, about half the 210 mph speed at which aerodynamic friction becomes a loud screech. So that component of noise concern is not applicable to Palo Alto. Caltrain currently maxes out around 80 mph, which will continue to be the max speed with electrification.

(I'm actually riding the French HSR called TGV at this very moment, a comfortable even slightly luxurious way to travel across the country in half the time it would take to drive. I believe we've been maxing out at 300 kph, 186mph, also less than the high speed screech.)


Mondoman
Registered user
Green Acres
on Jun 17, 2023 at 10:32 am
Mondoman, Green Acres
Registered user
on Jun 17, 2023 at 10:32 am

[Post removed due to factual inaccuracies.]


MyFeelz
Registered user
another community
on Jun 17, 2023 at 5:56 pm
MyFeelz, another community
Registered user
on Jun 17, 2023 at 5:56 pm

Oh, if only everybody's comments were fact-checked. I didn't realize that was a thing here. On issues like this, we the little people are given so little real information that we often have to piece together the truth and put a little bit of padding in the places where they public has been left in the dark, leaving us to our imagination. I don't know what Mondoman's comment was, but I sense this viaduct is never going to be a reality, because densely populated areas that are already built out right next to the tracks, it is not feasible or wise to bring high speed rail through, or as one poster wrote, to have the trains more like roller coasters because of the nearness of each stop. There can be no blending of up and down. It was built on one level, and that is how it will stay forever. Unless Caltrans wants to buy out a couple of streets' worth of houses, through the entire corridor. It would add hundreds of billions of dollars to the project.


Cedric de La Beaujardiere
Registered user
Barron Park
on Jun 17, 2023 at 6:26 pm
Cedric de La Beaujardiere, Barron Park
Registered user
on Jun 17, 2023 at 6:26 pm

Just to be clear, there is no "roller coaster" caused by any combination of options, because of the stringent requirements for gentle curves. For changing the vertical angle of the tracks up or down there is a requirement for a radius (or maybe diameter) of no less than one mile! For roller coaster feelz, you'll need to get off Caltrain and into Great America Amusement Park...


pb
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jun 17, 2023 at 7:48 pm
pb , Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jun 17, 2023 at 7:48 pm

The Marx Brothers also ask: Why A Duck?
Web Link


Mondoman
Registered user
Green Acres
on Jun 17, 2023 at 10:11 pm
Mondoman, Green Acres
Registered user
on Jun 17, 2023 at 10:11 pm

@Cedric - thanks for the link to the viaduct drawings and dimensions! ( Web Link )

According to the measurements shown there, viaduct track level would be 20' above ground level, with the electric power overhead contact system reaching a maximum of 30' above the tracks, or 50' above ground level. (from "Example section, viaduct looking north")

What seems insufficient to me are the sound walls on the sides of the viaduct. They are shown as 6' high above track level, even though train cars and locomotives are much taller (e.g. GE AC4400CW locomotive is 15.5' high). Thus, it seems that much of the train/engine noise would not be blocked by the pictured short sound wall. To me, this seems about as effective as building 3-4' "sound walls" along 101 in place of the much taller ones we see there every day. Of course, older and non-electric locomotives will be even louder than any new models.

MnDOT has useful info on highway sound barriers at Web Link . They note "...to be effective at blocking sound there must be complete blockage of the line of sight from the receiver to all noise sources and a great enough mass density to stop the transmission of sound." In a typical situation, "For residences located directly behind a 20 foot noise barrier, a reduction of about 10 dBA would be typical." (which they consider effective)

Since trains are no shorter or quieter than highway traffic, I would think rail viaduct sound walls should also be on the order of 20' tall to work effectively. For the proposed viaduct design, that would mean 20' tall concrete walls starting 20' above ground level and extending to 40' above ground level. While this may not be Berlin Wall-scale urban blight, it certainly seems like visual blight to me.

IMHO, the best plan is to do nothing and wait some decades to see if grade separation becomes needed.


Cedric de La Beaujardiere
Registered user
Barron Park
on Jun 18, 2023 at 5:28 am
Cedric de La Beaujardiere, Barron Park
Registered user
on Jun 18, 2023 at 5:28 am

@mondoman Doing Nothing (or No Project) is always one alternative in any Environmental Impact Studies or Reports (EIS/EIR) and might (?) be an option for Palo Alto, but there may be little political appetite for that choice given the years already spent on this question. I don't recall if Do Nothing is an acceptable option for Caltrain or HSR.

The Do Nothing option has more rail noise than any grade separation, because of the continued need to blast the horns. Also it has the continued high risk of suicides, deadly accidents, and traffic snarls.

Of note in this regard the city has opted to hold off on grade separation studies for Palo Alto Ave, opting to consider what changes might be made in conjunction with revitalization of the downtown train station and it's environs.

In regards to the noise of the current crossings, Menlo Park and PA are planning for Quiet Zone rail crossings which will make the crossings safer and allow the trains to not blast their horns at every crossing. PA is only considering this for the northernmost crossing at Alma/Palo Alto Ave. See Web Link

It happens to be relatively inexpensive for PA Ave, but may be pricier for the other PA intersections, but much less than grade separation.


Donald
Registered user
South of Midtown
on Jun 18, 2023 at 7:35 am
Donald, South of Midtown
Registered user
on Jun 18, 2023 at 7:35 am

Remember that the drawings in the current project documents are conceptual. The actual designs will undoubtedly be different in many ways.


Resident11
Registered user
Fairmeadow
on Jun 18, 2023 at 9:07 am
Resident11, Fairmeadow
Registered user
on Jun 18, 2023 at 9:07 am

I believe that Europe has some nice sleek elevated trains. However, in Palo Alto we have long, heavy freight trains. I am not excited about elevating those in a quiet residential area. Furthermore, the overpasses I have seen in this area often have graffiti, refuse, and the unfortunate unhoused living underneath. If this is not the future that viaduct proponents envision for our city, then they need a convincing proposal explaining why our green space running the length of the tracks will be different.

There are cheaper ways to solve the train horn problem, if that is what we want to address.


Local news junkie
Registered user
Charleston Meadows
on Jun 18, 2023 at 12:11 pm
Local news junkie, Charleston Meadows
Registered user
on Jun 18, 2023 at 12:11 pm

Some posters have painted an appealing picture of what might be under a viaduct: well-tended parkland, walking and jogging trails, art installations, even a coffee shop. Hate to be cynical, but with budget constraints and today’s social problems, I, like @Resident 11, predict a long, weed-invested strip with trash, graffiti, and homeless camps. Just what neighbors need on top of visual blight and noise pollution.


Harvey
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jun 18, 2023 at 1:50 pm
Harvey, Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jun 18, 2023 at 1:50 pm

Let's run an experiment- close Churchill crossing to cars for a couple of months, and let's see what the impact is. It is possible that any negative impact of a closed crossing to cars is substantially less than what a a small slice of the community seems to believe it would be.

I live a few blocks from this intersection and strongly believe closing the intersection is the best option.

Closing this intersection to cars would be the safest, cheapest (by far!), fastest option, and reduce train horn noise to zero if there is no crossing.

I assume a pedestrian underpass (as we have at Alma & Homer, near PAMF) is a "must have" given Paly and to service neighbors who like to walk and bike.




Bystander
Registered user
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jun 18, 2023 at 3:24 pm
Bystander, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
Registered user
on Jun 18, 2023 at 3:24 pm

@Harvey.

Have you considered all the school buses in your idea to pilot a closure of the Churchill crossing? Even in summer, those buses are using Churchill plenty of times each day and a detour from the bus yard in Paly would cause plenty of disturbance to their routes.


Leslie York
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jun 19, 2023 at 2:25 am
Leslie York, Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jun 19, 2023 at 2:25 am

"I live a few blocks from this intersection and strongly believe closing the intersection is the best option."

Paradise for you but a nightmare for all other users of that crossing, including emergency and PAUSD vehicles.

CPA was built around a rail line which divides the city in two. The city would be even more divided with Churchill closed.

"Hate to be cynical, but with budget constraints and today’s social problems, I, like @Resident 11, predict a long, weed-invested strip with trash, graffiti, and homeless camps."

Perhaps the futuristic artist's conceptualizations should realistically depict that: a series of permanently-parked RV's and igloo tents. This isn't a quaint European burg, after all.

What really concerns me about those encampments is the presence of crime and drug use, and the lack of proper sewage disposal with the attendant potential for an outbreak of cholera, not an unrealistic fear.


PaloAltoVoter
Registered user
Crescent Park
on Jun 19, 2023 at 4:54 am
PaloAltoVoter, Crescent Park
Registered user
on Jun 19, 2023 at 4:54 am

Don’t forget the towers for electrification. Cal train standards are set. Towers and wires with be 50-70 feet high along the entire railway because it’s required to be a certain height above the trains (based on potentially double high freight trains) and add the height of the viaduct. Caltrain has completed the electrification work so the city would have to pay the tab to redo all of that work as well.

It’ll be a massive eye sore.

Should we also put the tunnel back on the table?

Start over entirely?


Leslie York
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jun 19, 2023 at 5:28 am
Leslie York, Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jun 19, 2023 at 5:28 am

"Caltrain has completed the electrification work so the city would have to pay the tab to redo all of that work as well."

Automobile underpasses like at Embarcadero are the only solutions that would avoid that expense because the ROW wouldn't be disturbed.

Hybrids, a viaduct and a trench would all require a second round of electrification.


Reality Check
Registered user
another community
on Jun 20, 2023 at 1:24 pm
Reality Check, another community
Registered user
on Jun 20, 2023 at 1:24 pm

@Mondoman: in the noise study, the low sound walls (or parapets) along the viaduct edges need only be high enough to block the noise emanating from the rail-wheel interface. As Cedric correctly explained earlier, at the modest maximum train speeds envisioned for the Peninsula, very little (aerodynamic) noise emanates from the area above the wheels.

As Cedric also quite correctly pointed out earlier, the “can’t have a ‘roller coaster’” critique is nonsense as there is more than adequate space for the tracks to gently and imperceptibly-to-riders return to grade level to serve the California Ave. station between two viaducts over Churchill and Meadow./Charleston.

For those concerned over what might become of the new, open, usable, “activate-able”, community re-connecting space created under a viaduct, have a look at the Ohlone Greenway that carries BART through neighborhoods between North Berkeley and El Cerrito above an old ground-level RR right of way.

See this bicyclist’s-eye view of a ride along the popular Ohlone Greenway viaduct:

Web Link

If it works so well in Berkeley & El Cerrito (or Honolulu or Melbourne) imagine just how much better it could be made to work here in Palo Alto!


Mondoman
Registered user
Green Acres
on Jun 20, 2023 at 5:29 pm
Mondoman, Green Acres
Registered user
on Jun 20, 2023 at 5:29 pm

@Reality Check
There are of course sources of vehicle noise other than the wheel/surface interface and aerodynamic noise. That's why highway noise walls are so high. I don't see any evidence that trains are different in this respect. Sure would be nice to have some empirical measurements for various heights/types of sound walls.


Local news junkie
Registered user
Charleston Meadows
on Jun 20, 2023 at 7:40 pm
Local news junkie, Charleston Meadows
Registered user
on Jun 20, 2023 at 7:40 pm

@Reality Check
Thanks for posting the video from Berkeley. I like the pedestrian/bike path to the left. There’s some nice greenery to the right. What I don’t like is that concrete monstrosity running down the center.


Mondoman
Registered user
Green Acres
on Jun 20, 2023 at 9:38 pm
Mondoman, Green Acres
Registered user
on Jun 20, 2023 at 9:38 pm

The Ohlone Trail video is nice, thanks! I do note that in current Streetview it seems to collect a lot of graffiti on the concrete viaduct pillars and the signs along the way.


Reality Check
Registered user
another community
on Jun 21, 2023 at 5:03 pm
Reality Check, another community
Registered user
on Jun 21, 2023 at 5:03 pm

@Mondoman: freeway sound walls must be higher because they are much, much further away from the noise sources — which are primarily from the virtually *constant* tire/pavement interface noise (followed by loud engines & poorly muffled or deliberately loud exhaust pipes) — across a the width a multi-lane freeway, AND because the low line of sight angles to various human “receptors” living & working alongside ground-level freeways. Parapets along elevated tracks are comparatively very close to the noise producing wheel/rail interface and undercarriage drive motors of self-propelled (non-locomotive hauled) electric trains (EMUs) such Caltrain and HSR will only periodically (vs. constant freeway noise) pass by any particular point. Apart from the occasional diesel locomotive-hauled UP freight train and high-mounted horns, there are no significant noise sources above the wheel height of EMUs at the maximum speeds envisioned on the Peninsula.

Once again, here’s the 42-page noise study showing how (counter-intuitively to some) quiet the viaduct would be:

Web Link

Regarding the Ohlone Greenway viaduct comments: yes, while they can be made to look nicer with creeping vines or other treatments, columns are obviously necessary because viaducts don’t magically float. As anyone who gets around knows, the frequency and type of graffiti seen in Palo Alto is happily nowhere near to that seen in some other areas. So we can and should expect less of it here. But happily, the foliage of creeping/clinging vines not only obscure and soften the appearance of concrete of walls and/or columns, they also deny graffiti “artists” a canvas. Problem solved. Win-win!


Devon
Registered user
Community Center
on Jun 22, 2023 at 8:22 am
Devon, Community Center
Registered user
on Jun 22, 2023 at 8:22 am

A viaduct is a great option. A walking and bike path underneath* would create space for people to spend time together, make a safe bike route, and decrease the separation between parts of Palo Alto that are currently separated by train tracks. Even better if it could run the whole length of Palo Alto, and if Menlo Park and Mountain View joined in - the walking and biking corridor could connect our cities.

* Yes, I understand that Caltrain would have to agree to the path underneath.


Reality Check
Registered user
another community
on Jun 22, 2023 at 10:10 am
Reality Check, another community
Registered user
on Jun 22, 2023 at 10:10 am

@Devon: Brian Fitzpatrick, Caltrain’s property manager and the Caltrain staff have said they will be extending their existing Rail Corridor Use Policy (RCUP) to address uses of new open space created by elevating their tracks.

As part of its new “Transit District,” Redwood City and Caltrain are planning a citywide viaduct and new elevated station to grade-separate the remaining 6 at-grade crossings (7 if you count the busy pedestrian crossing at the existing downtown station) at Whipple, Brewster, Broadway, Maple, Main, and Chestnut while connecting the east and west sides of downtown and neighborhoods bisected by today’s ground-level tracks. The new elevated downtown station would feature a bus transit center at ground/street level and have 4 tracks and 2 platforms to provide a mid-line opportunity for faster express and HSR trains to pass slower local trains.

More about Redwood City’s plans here: Web Link


Mondoman
Registered user
Green Acres
on Jun 22, 2023 at 11:19 pm
Mondoman, Green Acres
Registered user
on Jun 22, 2023 at 11:19 pm

Running HSR trains on the Peninsula is a currently unfunded eventual goal, likely to take many decades to be put into practice if at all, and so probably not relevent here.

Given Caltrain's extreme fiscal difficulties and weak prospects for a return to pre-pandemic ridership numbers, substantially increasing the frequency of its trains will be a big challenge. The revamped plan as of spring 2023 is to increase peak hour train schedule by 20% (6 per hour over 5 per hour pre-pandemic) once electrification is implemented roughly 18 months from now (3/4 new electric passenger trainsets, 1/4 diesel, freight still diesel). That is somehow expected to result in substantially increased ridership and thus revenues. It's reasonable to be skeptical of that materializing, so putting off grade separation for some years or even decades may not have a significant adverse effect on current traffic conditions at the grade crossings. It will though be nice for Caltrain to be running new, quieter and better-performing trainsets in most of its trains.

I was puzzled by the City's acoustical report seemingly ignoring the elephant in the room - peak train noise. Although trains produce episodic loud noise vs. highways having more steady noise, the report only looked at noise averaged over time (typically about 15, 30 or 60 minutes) rather than the few minutes of quite loud noise as a train passes. The report also ignored houses not within 2 rows from the tracks, for reasons that are unclear. Surely it would not have been difficult to place e.g. 6 sound meters spread out from near the tracks to almost El Camino and record the simultaneous readings during both train events and the intervals between them.

I did find work based on measurements of an electric-powered elevated commuter train line in Hong Kong. Web Link Higher sound walls improved performance, but also adding plenum-based mitigations worked even better.


Nayeli
Registered user
Midtown
on Jun 23, 2023 at 7:12 am
Nayeli, Midtown
Registered user
on Jun 23, 2023 at 7:12 am

The viaduct is a terrible idea for Palo Alto. This is why it was largely rejected the first time.

Why do such bad ideas resurface? It's like the new Express Lanes that have hurt Bay Area traffic. They remove the HOV lanes and replaced them with pay-to-drive lanes. Did residents have a say in this? Of course not. The "revenue seekers" pushed it despite public sentiment.

It's not really "democratic" if a small group of bureaucrats make all of these decisions for us.


Mondoman
Registered user
Green Acres
on Jun 24, 2023 at 10:31 am
Mondoman, Green Acres
Registered user
on Jun 24, 2023 at 10:31 am

@Nayeli We all acquiesce in the bad ideas by continuing to vote for our current electeds. It's too bad the Republicans self-destructed, thus leaving the state Democrats no obstacle to running amok.


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