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Apartment buildings as tall as 88 feet in Ventura? State law could allow it

California housing law clouds Palo Alto's vision as city finalizes North Ventura Coordinated Area Plan

Palo Alto is working on a new vision for 60 acres of the Ventura neighborhood. Photo by Jocelyn Dong.

When the Palo Alto City Council endorsed a new vision for a 60-acre portion of the Ventura neighborhood last fall, it deliberately chose the most cautious path toward redeveloping the centrally located but historically underserved area.

Though consultants and housing advocates argued that redevelopment would be economically feasible only if the city were to greatly relax density limits and allow more office development, the council majority chose the most modest proposal on the table. The plan would net an additional 530 dwellings and allow buildings an additional 10 feet in height, changing limits to 45 feet near single-family zones and 55 feet in high-density mixed-use zones. (The latter zones formerly allowed both commercial and mixed-use.)

But as the North Ventura Coordinated Area Plan moves toward formal adoption, the city is now confronting an uncomfortable reality: Thanks to state housing laws, the future of the planning area bounded by Page Mill Road, El Camino Real, Lambert Avenue and Park Boulevard may look startlingly different from the plan in their imagination.

The California Density Bonus Law, which was amended last year, now allows developers of 100% affordable housing to claim an additional 33 feet in height. This means that sites in Ventura where the council and its advisory commissions were hoping to see five- and six-story developments would now accommodate eight- and nine-story projects.

The impact of the state law on the city's Ventura plan emerged as an issue of concern during recent public hearings on the draft North Ventura Coordinated Area Plan, which was released in late May and which follows more than two years of debate and discussion by the council and a specially appointed citizen workforce consisting of civic volunteers and neighborhood stakeholders.

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Both the Planning and Transportation Commission and the Architectural Review Board expressed particular concern for the single-family areas along Pepper Avenue and Olive Avenue and whether the homes could find themselves overshadowed by new 88-foot-tall buildings down the block.

Several Architectural Review Board members raised concerns about the "fortress" configuration that could result, with high-rise buildings surrounding the 30 or so homes on the two streets between Ash Street and El Camino Real.

Peter Baltay, who chairs the Architectural Review Board, said during the board's June 1 review of the plan that the city needs to refine its policies on "daylight plane" – regulations that ensure that new developments don't cut off light from existing buildings. This often entails creating tiered developments, with higher stories positioned further back. The new rules would be required to protect the houses on Pepper and Olive avenues, Baltay said.

Board member Kendra Rosenberg questioned whether simply refining the daylight plane rules would be enough.

"I think that the 33 feet of additional height is super problematic next to residential," Rosenberg said. "While I understand the daylight plane (rules) will hopefully prevent that from going too tall, I have some serious concerns."

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The new Ventura plan proposes concentrating the tallest and densest developments along El Camino Real, near Portage and Lambert avenues and along Park Boulevard, between Page Mill Road and Lambert. Parcels in these areas would be zoned for "high-density mixed use," with the goal of accommodating between 61 and 100 dwelling units per acre. (Traditionally, the city's zoning code has allowed a maximum of 40 units per acre in its densest areas.)

These parcels, along with the Page Mill site that today houses the headquarters of Cloudera, would have a height limit of 55 feet -- or 88 feet by state law if they provide 100% affordable housing.

The remaining parcels along El Camino, Page Mill and Lambert would all be designated as "medium-density" areas with a height limit of 45 feet, or 78 feet if a developer invokes the state law.

Ironically, aside from the single-family zones, the only major property in the 60-acre planning area that would not see its height limit relaxed is the much-debated cannery building that formerly housed Fry's Electronics. The city and property owner The Sobrato Organization have worked out a separate development agreement that would govern that central portion of the neighborhood.

This three-slide graphic shows current, proposed and potential height limits for the North Ventura Coordinated Area Plan.

Planning commission Chair Doria Summa, who served on the North Ventura Coordinated Area Plan Working Group, suggested during the commission's review that the impacts of the additional height will extend well beyond the single-family zones.

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"If you live in a 45- or 50-foot building and you have an 88-foot building right next to you, there's going to be impacts on everyone," Summa said. "And I think as we move forward with the NVCAP and the Housing Element, we need to keep in mind that we don't want to create areas of Palo Alto that are completely different in terms of how people live than most of Palo Alto."

Not everyone is alarmed about the additional height. City staff noted during the reviews that developing 100% affordable projects is challenging and it's highly unlikely that the city will see a wave of such projects going up in the Ventura area any time soon. Planning Commissioner Bart Hechtman shared that view and suggested that staff return with additional analysis about a more realistic development scenario.

"While we can look at a worst-case scenario and you can add 33 feet to all these areas, the reality is it's not that easy to build 100% affordable housing," Hechtman said. "There aren't that many who do it and it's not going to happen throughout here."

That said, one such development is already advancing in the Ventura area.The nonprofit Charities Housing is planning to build 129 apartments for low-income residents on the former site of Mike's Bikes at 3001 El Camino Real. According to plans, the proposed five-story building would be 66 feet tall, well above the city's 50-foot height limit but below the 83 feet of height that Charities could have under the state's Density Bonus Law.

While the council has yet to formally approve the Ventura plan, the document has already proved polarizing. Some members of the North Ventura working group have complained that the plan doesn't go far enough in ensuring that the new housing would be affordable, while others have lobbied for more retail or open space.

And while some have protested the council's decision to allow Sobrato to demolish a portion of the historic Fry's building to make way for townhouses, others suggested that the current proposal doesn't go anywhere far enough when it comes to housing.

Former council member Gail Price, who served as co-chair of the working group, lamented to the council last October that the city didn't pursue the most ambitious proposal, which would have resulted in about 1,500 new dwellings and 126,000 square feet of new office space. (By contrast, the current vision calls for just 5,000 square feet of new office development.)

"The refined preferred alternative has lost this opportunity for generations to come and it is looking to the past and not to the future," Price said.

But Lauren Bigelow, who serves as board chair of the advocacy group Palo Alto Renters Association, called the draft a "step in the right direction." During the planning commission's May 30 review of the new document, Bigelow called the proposal to add 530 dwelling units near transit and other amenities "very exciting."

"NVCAP gives us the opportunity to get back to the Palo Alto we once were, which is innovative and productive in terms of building affordable housing and able to be accessible to a diverse group of people," Bigelow said.

The council is set to review the plan when it returns from its summer break.

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Gennady Sheyner
 
Gennady Sheyner covers the City Hall beat in Palo Alto as well as regional politics, with a special focus on housing and transportation. Before joining the Palo Alto Weekly/PaloAltoOnline.com in 2008, he covered breaking news and local politics for the Waterbury Republican-American, a daily newspaper in Connecticut. Read more >>

Follow on Twitter @paloaltoweekly, Facebook and on Instagram @paloaltoonline for breaking news, local events, photos, videos and more.

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Apartment buildings as tall as 88 feet in Ventura? State law could allow it

California housing law clouds Palo Alto's vision as city finalizes North Ventura Coordinated Area Plan

When the Palo Alto City Council endorsed a new vision for a 60-acre portion of the Ventura neighborhood last fall, it deliberately chose the most cautious path toward redeveloping the centrally located but historically underserved area.

Though consultants and housing advocates argued that redevelopment would be economically feasible only if the city were to greatly relax density limits and allow more office development, the council majority chose the most modest proposal on the table. The plan would net an additional 530 dwellings and allow buildings an additional 10 feet in height, changing limits to 45 feet near single-family zones and 55 feet in high-density mixed-use zones. (The latter zones formerly allowed both commercial and mixed-use.)

But as the North Ventura Coordinated Area Plan moves toward formal adoption, the city is now confronting an uncomfortable reality: Thanks to state housing laws, the future of the planning area bounded by Page Mill Road, El Camino Real, Lambert Avenue and Park Boulevard may look startlingly different from the plan in their imagination.

The California Density Bonus Law, which was amended last year, now allows developers of 100% affordable housing to claim an additional 33 feet in height. This means that sites in Ventura where the council and its advisory commissions were hoping to see five- and six-story developments would now accommodate eight- and nine-story projects.

The impact of the state law on the city's Ventura plan emerged as an issue of concern during recent public hearings on the draft North Ventura Coordinated Area Plan, which was released in late May and which follows more than two years of debate and discussion by the council and a specially appointed citizen workforce consisting of civic volunteers and neighborhood stakeholders.

Both the Planning and Transportation Commission and the Architectural Review Board expressed particular concern for the single-family areas along Pepper Avenue and Olive Avenue and whether the homes could find themselves overshadowed by new 88-foot-tall buildings down the block.

Several Architectural Review Board members raised concerns about the "fortress" configuration that could result, with high-rise buildings surrounding the 30 or so homes on the two streets between Ash Street and El Camino Real.

Peter Baltay, who chairs the Architectural Review Board, said during the board's June 1 review of the plan that the city needs to refine its policies on "daylight plane" – regulations that ensure that new developments don't cut off light from existing buildings. This often entails creating tiered developments, with higher stories positioned further back. The new rules would be required to protect the houses on Pepper and Olive avenues, Baltay said.

Board member Kendra Rosenberg questioned whether simply refining the daylight plane rules would be enough.

"I think that the 33 feet of additional height is super problematic next to residential," Rosenberg said. "While I understand the daylight plane (rules) will hopefully prevent that from going too tall, I have some serious concerns."

The new Ventura plan proposes concentrating the tallest and densest developments along El Camino Real, near Portage and Lambert avenues and along Park Boulevard, between Page Mill Road and Lambert. Parcels in these areas would be zoned for "high-density mixed use," with the goal of accommodating between 61 and 100 dwelling units per acre. (Traditionally, the city's zoning code has allowed a maximum of 40 units per acre in its densest areas.)

These parcels, along with the Page Mill site that today houses the headquarters of Cloudera, would have a height limit of 55 feet -- or 88 feet by state law if they provide 100% affordable housing.

The remaining parcels along El Camino, Page Mill and Lambert would all be designated as "medium-density" areas with a height limit of 45 feet, or 78 feet if a developer invokes the state law.

Ironically, aside from the single-family zones, the only major property in the 60-acre planning area that would not see its height limit relaxed is the much-debated cannery building that formerly housed Fry's Electronics. The city and property owner The Sobrato Organization have worked out a separate development agreement that would govern that central portion of the neighborhood.

Planning commission Chair Doria Summa, who served on the North Ventura Coordinated Area Plan Working Group, suggested during the commission's review that the impacts of the additional height will extend well beyond the single-family zones.

"If you live in a 45- or 50-foot building and you have an 88-foot building right next to you, there's going to be impacts on everyone," Summa said. "And I think as we move forward with the NVCAP and the Housing Element, we need to keep in mind that we don't want to create areas of Palo Alto that are completely different in terms of how people live than most of Palo Alto."

Not everyone is alarmed about the additional height. City staff noted during the reviews that developing 100% affordable projects is challenging and it's highly unlikely that the city will see a wave of such projects going up in the Ventura area any time soon. Planning Commissioner Bart Hechtman shared that view and suggested that staff return with additional analysis about a more realistic development scenario.

"While we can look at a worst-case scenario and you can add 33 feet to all these areas, the reality is it's not that easy to build 100% affordable housing," Hechtman said. "There aren't that many who do it and it's not going to happen throughout here."

That said, one such development is already advancing in the Ventura area.The nonprofit Charities Housing is planning to build 129 apartments for low-income residents on the former site of Mike's Bikes at 3001 El Camino Real. According to plans, the proposed five-story building would be 66 feet tall, well above the city's 50-foot height limit but below the 83 feet of height that Charities could have under the state's Density Bonus Law.

While the council has yet to formally approve the Ventura plan, the document has already proved polarizing. Some members of the North Ventura working group have complained that the plan doesn't go far enough in ensuring that the new housing would be affordable, while others have lobbied for more retail or open space.

And while some have protested the council's decision to allow Sobrato to demolish a portion of the historic Fry's building to make way for townhouses, others suggested that the current proposal doesn't go anywhere far enough when it comes to housing.

Former council member Gail Price, who served as co-chair of the working group, lamented to the council last October that the city didn't pursue the most ambitious proposal, which would have resulted in about 1,500 new dwellings and 126,000 square feet of new office space. (By contrast, the current vision calls for just 5,000 square feet of new office development.)

"The refined preferred alternative has lost this opportunity for generations to come and it is looking to the past and not to the future," Price said.

But Lauren Bigelow, who serves as board chair of the advocacy group Palo Alto Renters Association, called the draft a "step in the right direction." During the planning commission's May 30 review of the new document, Bigelow called the proposal to add 530 dwelling units near transit and other amenities "very exciting."

"NVCAP gives us the opportunity to get back to the Palo Alto we once were, which is innovative and productive in terms of building affordable housing and able to be accessible to a diverse group of people," Bigelow said.

The council is set to review the plan when it returns from its summer break.

Comments

Sunshine
Registered user
Barron Park
on Jul 6, 2023 at 2:00 pm
Sunshine, Barron Park
Registered user
on Jul 6, 2023 at 2:00 pm

This proposed development is too big and too tall. All such buildings in Palo Alto within half a mile of a single family residential area should be prohibited. This is essentially neighborhood bashing and an attempt to turn Palo Alto into a slum.
The time to stop this foolishness is NOW!
Tlarge and increasing number of for rent signs indicates that there is plenty of housing available.


Bystander
Registered user
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jul 6, 2023 at 2:12 pm
Bystander, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
Registered user
on Jul 6, 2023 at 2:12 pm

Just because it is allowed, doesn't mean we should do it.


Paly Grad
Registered user
Leland Manor/Garland Drive
on Jul 6, 2023 at 2:49 pm
Paly Grad, Leland Manor/Garland Drive
Registered user
on Jul 6, 2023 at 2:49 pm

There is no need for more office space. There are any for lease signs in our city.


tmp
Registered user
Downtown North
on Jul 6, 2023 at 3:57 pm
tmp, Downtown North
Registered user
on Jul 6, 2023 at 3:57 pm

Developers are claiming "Builder's Remedy" and say that Palo Alto doesn't have a housing plan yet. But it is sitting at the state housing office - so, not the city's fault. The city council should fight these developments due to the state not returning our housing plan. Therefore the developers do not have any right to build because the city has submitted a housing plan.


Comment
Registered user
Downtown North
on Jul 6, 2023 at 5:27 pm
Comment, Downtown North
Registered user
on Jul 6, 2023 at 5:27 pm

One may dispise these State laws erroding local control, yet not too concerned about this 33-foot height increase law.

As noted, it only pertains to all-affordable housing projects. Since there is no develper profit in building much needed below market rate housing projects, few if any 88-foot high buildings under this law will get built.

Only non-profits build all-affordable housing and they have to scramble to scrape up funding. Such projects are the exception, and thankfully a few are proposed or in the pipeline.

The real problem is these areas will be inundated with big market-rate housing proposals (as has begun on El Camino) given this is how fortunes are made, while everyone around suffers the impacts.


Larry
Registered user
Downtown North
on Jul 6, 2023 at 6:26 pm
Larry, Downtown North
Registered user
on Jul 6, 2023 at 6:26 pm

Not sure what the height number is here in Palo Alto, but building codes require the use of steel framing above a certain height limit. Steel construction is way more expensive than wood, which is why you see so many giant wood structures being built. For a project that would already be financially challenged by being 100% "affordable," the odds of a monster like this actually getting built seem small.


Native to the BAY
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jul 6, 2023 at 11:29 pm
Native to the BAY, Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jul 6, 2023 at 11:29 pm

Fools paradise. SFH R1zoners have thrown up virtual barbed wire around their neighborhoods. With the ten Palo Alto Neighborhood Associations threading the wire fencing hire and stronger, all are squeezing out the middle class, working folk, which in turn is denying low wage work force residency to live safely and equitably in good housing.

I’d begin this with an investigative article about PA’s history on exclusionary housing. I.e Lawerence Tract and Ladera. Then move on to the incorporating East PA chicken farms into EPA and then Mayfield’s incorporation into Palo Alto’s city proper.

While GS is publishing grandiose articles about Malcolm Harris book about Palo Alto, he’d (GS) be a good candidate to write from the ground (not unlike Walt Whitman) detailed article of why it is PA is at this crossroads and not in another place where we might have been had solid, sound planning taken hold. Instead we have 60 acres of NVCAP going to highest bidder, leaving the bulk of the struggling to survive still inside vehicle, rv living or totally unhoused while working PA ‘s provided desperately needed service jobs. So much for climate change. If you don’t own it can’t home it. Very sad state of affairs. Day light plains?? “Only the Shadow Knows”.


Annette
Registered user
College Terrace
on Jul 7, 2023 at 7:33 am
Annette, College Terrace
Registered user
on Jul 7, 2023 at 7:33 am

Commissioner Summa brings a voice of reason to this discussion when she notes the inevitable impacts of 88' buildings towering over structures half that height. How is it that a supposedly smart community can't make headway on the housing issue and is repeatedly subject to developers who want to build BIG? Will vacancy rates ever be a factor in the approval process? It is stupid to build what isn't needed or will not be at least some high (80?) percent occupied b/c every development is a hit on the environment and a demand on infrastructure.


Estelle Granderson
Registered user
Crescent Park
on Jul 7, 2023 at 9:49 am
Estelle Granderson, Crescent Park
Registered user
on Jul 7, 2023 at 9:49 am

If the city cannot create additional housing due to land availability, the only option is to go vertical.

Ventura is a small neighborhood and having 88-story dwellings there will not adversely affect or impact Palo Altans residing in other neighborhoods.

This is an issue for Ventura residents to settle, including the Fry's development project.


mjh
Registered user
College Terrace
on Jul 7, 2023 at 1:14 pm
mjh, College Terrace
Registered user
on Jul 7, 2023 at 1:14 pm

Crescent Park would be an ideal location for tall apartment buildings as the population density in that neighborhood is quite low because of so many relatively large lots.


Anonymous
Registered user
Duveneck/St. Francis
on Jul 7, 2023 at 7:29 pm
Anonymous, Duveneck/St. Francis
Registered user
on Jul 7, 2023 at 7:29 pm

Some of us warned about this; please follow the proposals in the CA state legislature and contact your state senator and state assemblymember when you believe they should vote against (or for) a bill under consideration.

Otherwise, special interests get their way with $$$$ and influence.

Be involved; this is necessary with a CA state legislature that has odd priorities and spends our taxpayer dollars casually.


Annette
Registered user
College Terrace
on Jul 8, 2023 at 6:29 am
Annette, College Terrace
Registered user
on Jul 8, 2023 at 6:29 am

Anonymous is exactly right about the need to pay attention. Sacramento is packed with special interest sycophants who churn legislation that isn't in the best interests of most CA residents. Government is supposed to manage the infrastructure of society, not pander to special interests or the firmly rooted primary personal interest of elected officials: reelection. On the A to F grading scale, I give Sacramento (and Washington) a D. On the pass/fail scale, I sadly conclude fail. We voters need to be objective at the polls and question candidates about how they would enact laws that are in the best interests of Californians. And that make common sense.

As for building to 88 feet, does Palo Alto have sufficient fire apparatus to respond to multiple incidents of fire in such high rise structures or will we need to depend on mutual aid? And since development nonsense is happening in many cities, just how thin can mutual aid be stretched? On the issue of housing alone, the geniuses in Sacramento are blithely paving the way for developers to create dangerously dysfunctional communities. Statewide. I doubt that is anyone's goal, but unintended consequences are what they are.

To get specific: Scott Weiner and his ilk, including our own Berman, should not be in office.


Local news junkie
Registered user
Charleston Meadows
on Jul 8, 2023 at 8:41 am
Local news junkie, Charleston Meadows
Registered user
on Jul 8, 2023 at 8:41 am

Annette:
You’re so right!


Online Name
Registered user
Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jul 8, 2023 at 9:15 am
Online Name, Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
Registered user
on Jul 8, 2023 at 9:15 am

"Anonymous is exactly right about the need to pay attention. Sacramento is packed with special interest sycophants who churn legislation that isn't in the best interests of most CA residents... To get specific: Scott Weiner and his ilk, including our own Berman, should not be in office."

Yup. AND they refuse to even reconsider our housing numbers for EIGHT -- 8 -- years AND keep adding millions of sq feet for offices instead of housing even though the office vacancy rate is at historic highs of 33% in San Francisco and almost 20% right here in Palo Alto. 2 of the biggest hotels in San Francisco -- the Hilton and Marc 55 -- defaulted on their loans, 2 more big conferences have left and daily foot traffic is down by 200,000 and public transit is going broke as ridership keeps declining...

But let's ignore reality and pretend that nothing changes for 8 years!

So these craven ideologues refuse to even reconsider their housing targets. to cap office develooment that's destroying neighborhoods, to force developers to convert EMPTY hotels and offices to housing, to impose vacancy taxes on greedy landlords or look at other solutions in our post-pandemic economy...

Our city "planners" and their "retail" consultants follow their tired old playbook STILL push for more office space, for the conversion of our retail areas into MORE offices...

@Annette is absolutely right in saying "To get specific: Scott Weiner and his ilk, including our own Berman, should not be in office."

Enough with this Groundhog Day! Reality matters.




Annette
Registered user
College Terrace
on Jul 8, 2023 at 1:54 pm
Annette, College Terrace
Registered user
on Jul 8, 2023 at 1:54 pm

@toransu, I will engage here. I think we are ALL getting you-know-whated, with the exception of the deep-pocketed developers and the politicians who do their bidding and thus reap healthy donations. This includes you, unless you are in one of the two exception groups. I also think the environment is damaged by development that is not needed and that there should be some way to tie new development to commitments to lease and/or purchase. Spec housing and theoretical plans aren't useful to anyone and don't move the needle on homelessness. And housing that pencils out favorably for the developer is generally too expensive for people with low and average income. That is a market force reality, not a result of "NIMBY" failure to compromise.

Someone above made the point that seeing an all-affordable 88' high housing development actually get built around here is unlikely b/c of costs. I think that person is probably right - and I will add that I had a suspicious thought that some developer's real game plan could be to use "all affordable" as a way of getting the building approved only to later claim the need to convert the units to market rate on the basis that high vacancy rates are unfair in some way. Since almost nothing our legislative bodies do these days comes as a surprise, there needs to be some way to make certain that housing approved b/c it is "all affordable" remains "all affordable" in perpetuity. And affordable needs to be clearly defined. In other words, no tricky games like we've seen with Planned Communities.

So, please, line up the takers for all this housing development so that it makes sense. If demand was quantified, development could be planned to meet it. As is, the status quo will continue and as unsavory as you may find this, I bet we agree that that is not a good thing.


Tsien Jiang
Registered user
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Jul 8, 2023 at 2:51 pm
Tsien Jiang, Another Palo Alto neighborhood
Registered user
on Jul 8, 2023 at 2:51 pm

The proposed mixed-use buildings are much needed to accommodate Palo Alto's chronic housing shortage.

Not everyone can afford to pay $5-7M for a home in Palo Alto and the local rents are exorbitant.

Ventura is an ideal site as the sections along Park Boulevard, Lambert Avenue, and El Camino could use a visual facelift.

Though we were fortunate to be able to afford an older Stedman-designed home in Palo Alto, others do not have that option. These proposed dwellings will accommodate those of lesser means who cannot pay cash for their homes. Though many new buyers will still be burdened with a 30 year mortgage, at least they will have an equity stake in Palo Alto.


Ryan Kimmel
Registered user
Downtown North
on Jul 9, 2023 at 12:49 pm
Ryan Kimmel, Downtown North
Registered user
on Jul 9, 2023 at 12:49 pm

Palo Alto actually needs LESS housing, not more housing. More parks, less crime, less pollution, less noise, less crowding


Online Name
Registered user
Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jul 9, 2023 at 2:02 pm
Online Name, Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
Registered user
on Jul 9, 2023 at 2:02 pm

"Not everyone can afford to pay $5-7M for a home in Palo Alto and the local rents are exorbitant."

The average price of a single-family PA home is "only" $3M, not $5-7M and condos are priced significantly less with quite a few under $1M and most in the $1M-$2M range as shown in the following link:

Web Link

Other nearby communities are priced lots lower than Palo Alto and nationally the average price of a single-family home is around $350,000.

Not everyone can buy their first home in one of the most expensive cities in the country; most of us lived elsewhere and used the profit on our first home(s) for our down payments as we moved into more expensive housing.

Most of us were also "burdened" with 30-yr-mortgages.

In many new developments the difference between market rents and "affordable" ones is a mere few hundred dollars off a $3500 monthly rent The pro-density lobbyists are pushing for market rate housing, not affordable housing, and they lobbied long and hard to ensure that the percentage of Below Market Rate housing was capped at 15% with only 5% for very low income.

The argument that stack-and-pack high density reduces housing costs is specious at best; if that were the case, dense cities like NYC, Tokyo, Shanghai, London etc etc would be the most affordable in the world.


Emily Wong
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jul 9, 2023 at 2:28 pm
Emily Wong, Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jul 9, 2023 at 2:28 pm

"The average price of a single-family PA home is "only" $3M, not $5-7M and condos are priced significantly less with quite a few under $1M and most in the $1M-$2M range..."

• So why do so many people want to reside in Palo Alto if the housing prices are so steep?

•• Common sense might dictate that only those who can afford to pay cash OR qualify for a 30 year mortgage (or a $4500-$5000/monthly rent) should seriously consider living in Palo Alto.

••• Most of the 'average' single family $3M Palo Alto homes cannot compare to those in the $5-7M range Palo Alto neighborhoods.

•••• The only other alternative is to build high-rise affordable housing in the neighborhoods that could use a facelift.


Local news junkie
Registered user
Charleston Meadows
on Jul 9, 2023 at 7:19 pm
Local news junkie, Charleston Meadows
Registered user
on Jul 9, 2023 at 7:19 pm

Emily Wong
You mention the possibility of high-rise affordable housing “in neighborhoods that could use a face-lift.¨ Affordable housing, if it ever comes about, should be located throughout the city, not limited to neighborhoods that people in Old Palo Alto or Crescent Park, etc., think need a face-lift. Everyone should do their share.


Aikeisha Willingham
Registered user
another community
on Jul 10, 2023 at 7:44 am
Aikeisha Willingham, another community
Registered user
on Jul 10, 2023 at 7:44 am

When and if these new dwellings are completed, African Americans should receive 1st priority occupational opportunities and deferred housing expenditures/costs as part of the growing reparations movement for modern-day descendents of American slavery.

As for the 88 foot height issue...having grown-up in the Hell's Kitchen projects, living in a multi-story building with hundreds of others is no big deal.

For the less endowed, this Ventura development is akin to having an opportunity to reside in a luxury penthouse.


Bruce Baker
Registered user
Midtown
on Jul 10, 2023 at 9:16 am
Bruce Baker, Midtown
Registered user
on Jul 10, 2023 at 9:16 am

Back in the late 1990s, we bought a house in Midtown for about $800,000.00.

Today the home is worth about $3.5 million even though it is just an old and mundane 3 bedroom/2 bath Brown & Kaufman flat top house.

We are thinking about selling it and moving to the wine country. Others on our street are considering the same as developers will pay top dollar and simply tear down these old rat traps to build nicer homes.

In terms of 'facelifts', the Midtown area could certainly use one and if 88 foot condos were to be erected there after we leave, who cares?

As George Foreman says in his appliance commercials, "It's not my problem."


Marcus Jackson
Registered user
Ventura
on Jul 10, 2023 at 10:33 am
Marcus Jackson, Ventura
Registered user
on Jul 10, 2023 at 10:33 am

I have no problem with highrise dwellings in Ventura. It would also be nice to have a small strip mall at the old Fry's site with a mid-sized supermarket, a gas station, bank, and maybe a small coffee shop.

What goes on in Ventura should be of no business or concern to Palo Alto residents living outside of this neighborhood as most Ventura residents do not get personally involved with issues pertaining Old Palo Alto, Professorville, Crescent Park or any of the other neighborhoods listed in PA Online


Anonymous
Registered user
Duveneck/St. Francis
on Jul 10, 2023 at 12:52 pm
Anonymous, Duveneck/St. Francis
Registered user
on Jul 10, 2023 at 12:52 pm

@ Marcus, this particular city doesn’t have city council reps representing each neighborhood.
We do stuff on a citywide level.

Therefore, we are all interested in the entire city -

traffic affects everyone, laws, rules and policies affect everyone - unless a specific zoning or etc. -

I don’t live near El Camino Real, but I drive on it frequently so proposals to take away a lane for bike lanes or etc. are still of great interest to me - just an example


Online Name
Registered user
Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jul 10, 2023 at 2:44 pm
Online Name, Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
Registered user
on Jul 10, 2023 at 2:44 pm

How odd to think that nothing matters beyond one's own immediate neighborhood. Are you assuming that people never go shopping, go to work, go to visit friends, go to the doctor or dentist?

As traffic has gotten so much worse, many of us have already had to sacrifice going to events and/or visiting friends throughout the Bay Area.

And just think how much worse it will be when the Bay Area us forced to absorb 1,000,000 new households. Good thing they won't use water or roads.


cid
Registered user
another community
on Jul 10, 2023 at 3:13 pm
cid , another community
Registered user
on Jul 10, 2023 at 3:13 pm

Senator Weiner must have pockets stuffed full of developer cash. If every unit he wants built comes about in the Bay Area how will the transit routes get improved? Right now there is a MidPen housing proposal for 71 units in Moss Beach coming-up for Coastside Design Review, and they are only planning 142 parking spots for a car-dependent community plus only 5 EV charging stations for said 142 spots. Regular gas at the Moss Beach Chevron was $4.99 recently, so how are low-income people going to get around? A senior housing project would have been better there, since they don't seem to commute to work once retired, but this is for affordable family housing that is normally built close to transit hubs like BART or CalTrain. SAMTRANS is spotty as well. The nearest High or Middle School is 7 miles away as are any shopping centers. They want affordable housing but putting it an out-of-the-way location from amenities or jobs is not optimal.


Annette
Registered user
College Terrace
on Jul 10, 2023 at 3:40 pm
Annette, College Terrace
Registered user
on Jul 10, 2023 at 3:40 pm

"not optimal" is a gracious understatement. The sort of project planned for Moss Beach stands as a perfect example of a sad fact: Weiner and others like him are using the plight of the homeless and buzz words like "affordable" to push through legislation that primarily benefits their primary constituency: developers. How else to explain the nonsense? As the saying goes, FOLLOW THE MONEY. I think they are also capitalizing on the anger (and gullibility) of those who buy what they are peddling. If what Weiner and the Nimby Nation are so vociferously promoting was the answer, don't you think the housing problem and affordability issue would be on a trajectory of improvement by now?

And to "Online Name" for the comment about water and roads: I appreciate your sarcasm! I've often wondered about the curriculum for those who get degrees in planning and government b/c practitioners of both seem to disregard reality.


Online Name
Registered user
Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Jul 11, 2023 at 1:17 pm
Online Name, Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
Registered user
on Jul 11, 2023 at 1:17 pm

@Annette, interesting question re urban planning experts. Obviously a popular and potentially lucrative concentration is "Creative Revenue Capturing" to help their govt clients come up with new "business opportunities."

Drom today's fascinating article entitled ""Napa may charge for parking for the first time in 30 years. Businesses are ready for a fight" news Web Link

As per the article, they conduct (parking) surveys pushing their clients' desired conclusions, they give expert testimony that the public is wrong, they bring in other traffic and retail consultants and they sloganeer

"Yet Donald Shoup, an urban planning professor at UCLA and author of “The High Cost of Free Parking,” said, “there’s a lot of evidence that we can make things much better with meters.”

Examples of this type of unrealistic sloganeering abound:


Sort of like traffic congestion pricing / tolls to "reduce" traffic congestion while adding to the congestion by mandating / approving more housing, jobs and commuters.

Also blindly pushing for forced electric conversion WhILE approving big new residential complexes with 172 parking spaces and only 5 EV chargers at a time EV car owners are all advised to avoid peak charging times like evenings and weekends to prevent increasingly common blackouts. Deflect questions about capacity planning etc.

Yup. Things sure go better with urban planning. The question is for whom.


Cameron Dietz
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Jul 12, 2023 at 12:16 pm
Cameron Dietz, Old Palo Alto
Registered user
on Jul 12, 2023 at 12:16 pm

Ventura is a neighborhood with both commercial establishments and residential dwellings.

Why not keep it as such and build the highrise complexes at the former Fry's site?

Though residential property values are exceedingly high in Palo Alto, there are some PA neighborhoods that will never attain the overall prestige and desirability as others.

These are the locales for expanding and addressing Pal Alto's affordable housing crisis.


jjmm2009
Registered user
another community
on Jul 12, 2023 at 12:30 pm
jjmm2009, another community
Registered user
on Jul 12, 2023 at 12:30 pm

When state senator Weiner stated publicly that owning a single family home with a yard in California is immoral and no elected official argued his point, I knew our once great state was done. As in, stick-a-fork-in-it-done. Since that time, he has authored or co-sponsored countless bills that have taken this cooked goose and turned it into a charred mess.

There's a big difference between affordable housing and stupid housing policies. Sadly we are inundated with the latter as we bumble our way through efforts to address the former. Important to remember, kids, that just because you want to live in Palo Alto or Menlo Park or Atherton, doesn't mean you are entitled to live there. Work hard, sacrifice, work harder, sacrifice more, and maybe you will one day be able to afford to live in an ultra exclusive community. Until then, hit the road and find a place in Modesto or Visalia. And have a great California day!


Helen Wicks
Registered user
Downtown North
on Jul 12, 2023 at 12:45 pm
Helen Wicks, Downtown North
Registered user
on Jul 12, 2023 at 12:45 pm

What transpires in Ventura is of no immediate interest to us.

Why are PA NIMBYs so concerned when it doesn't directly involve their own backyards and neighborhoods?

Paving over sections of Ventura with high-rise housing might be the best option to accommodate much-needed housing.

San Antonio Road (between Central Expressway and ECR) is a prime example of putting available space to good use.

With climate change and global warming in full swing, the proposed high-rise dwellings will provide much needed shade. When it's hot, who needs more visible sunlight?


mjh
Registered user
College Terrace
on Jul 12, 2023 at 1:13 pm
mjh, College Terrace
Registered user
on Jul 12, 2023 at 1:13 pm

I think we should pave over downtown north with 80’ high rise apartments since more than any other neighborhood it is best served by public transport with the adjacent train and bus station, as well as next to the downtown business district with all those office jobs, and a hop skip and jump across El Camino to all those Stanford jobs, including two Stanford hospitals, clinics, etc.


mjh
Registered user
College Terrace
on Jul 12, 2023 at 1:22 pm
mjh, College Terrace
Registered user
on Jul 12, 2023 at 1:22 pm

Old Palo Alto is one of the least densest neighborhoods and could best accommodate more people. A few 80’ high rises could be more easily be absorbed than most other neighborhoods. And central to so many job centers easily reached by bicycle, walking, etc.


Miranda Morales
Registered user
Ventura
on Jul 12, 2023 at 3:59 pm
Miranda Morales, Ventura
Registered user
on Jul 12, 2023 at 3:59 pm

If this development will increase the value of adjacent houses in Ventura, we have no problem with it and others shouldn't either as the increased property valuations will also improve the values of their homes.

When all homes in Palo Alto average $4-5 million (or more), it will be a win-win for all residents who have equity in their homes.

I am not concerned about those who wish to reside here but cannot afford it. That is their problem.


Jason Collins
Registered user
Ventura
on Jul 13, 2023 at 1:43 pm
Jason Collins, Ventura
Registered user
on Jul 13, 2023 at 1:43 pm

Page Mill Road (the entire section between ECR & Foothill Expressway) is an ideal locale to build highrise residential dwellings.


scott
Registered user
Palo Verde
on Jul 19, 2023 at 10:23 am
scott, Palo Verde
Registered user
on Jul 19, 2023 at 10:23 am

If you're doing 100% affordable, you should be able to build taller. 88 feet would be 88 feet of 100% affordable housing. Think of all the people that helps before you dump on it.


Open Book
Registered user
Leland Manor/Garland Drive
on Jul 19, 2023 at 12:11 pm
Open Book, Leland Manor/Garland Drive
Registered user
on Jul 19, 2023 at 12:11 pm

With global warming in full swing, having skyscraper residential dwellings will provide additional shade.


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