Alarmed by the recent floods, heat waves, and wildfires that have devastated some communities and caused orange air in others, a coalition of Palo Alto students and climate activists is pushing the city to speed up its plan to shut down its gas utility.
The group, which includes 350 Silicon Valley and the Palo Alto Student Climate Coalition, made its pitch on Monday night, Aug. 7, when more than a dozen residents addressed the City Council.
They cited the recent events as proof that the city needs to take more dramatic actions to meet its goal of going carbon neutral by 2030.
Some members of the group called on the council to pass a resolution declaring a climate emergency to signify the city's commitment to a clean-energy future.
Angelina Rosh, a member of the student coalition, noted that other cities, including San Francisco and Hayward, have already taken such a step.
"Passing a resolution declaring a climate emergency will show the community that the city recognized the imminent threat of climate change and will further its pledge to commit to mitigate this climate emergency," Rosh said.
Maya Perkash, who like Rosh is a rising senior and member of the coalition, said it's critical for Palo Alto to put in place proper incentives and measures to get people to go 100% electric on their properties.
This includes setting a sunset date for natural gas. Julia Zeitlin, an activist with 350 Silicon Valley, said the city has a "unique opportunity to be the first city in the United States to set a sunset date on natural gas."
"This would send a clear message to residents and communities beyond that the future is electric," Zeitlin said.
To date, the city has been cautious about phasing out gas. The council's 80x30 goal — which calls for reducing carbon emissions by 80% by 2030, with 1990 levels as the baseline — prioritizes electrification of buildings and vehicles throughout the community.
To date, however, the only program its adopted calls for encouraging residents to replace gas-fueled water heaters with heat pump water heaters.
The council's Sustainability/Climate Action Plan, its blueprint for achieving climate reductions, does not currently include a sunset date for gas. The recently adopted, three-year work plan for 2023-25 acknowledges the need to plan for waning gas sales but stops short of initiating a full-on shutdown of the municipal utility.
It includes as a policy the development of a "financial and operating plan for declining gas utility sales that maintains safety and solvency while providing affordable gas service to remaining gas users."
But given the events of the past summer, including the marine heat wave, some believe this is no longer enough.
Katie Rueff, a leader of the student coalition, said in an interview that the city is on a trajectory of lowering gas use by taking such actions as assisting low-income communities to make the transition.
Setting a shut-off date is important to help the city manage this effort, she said.
"It feels like an inevitability — we will need to shut off the gas. … We need to at least be setting that date so that we can start planning for it," Rueff said in an interview.
Rueff, who is also a member of 350 Silicon Valley, asked the city on Aug. 7 to set a sunset date by the end of the year.
"We'll need to equitably electrify," Rueff told the council.
Larry Klein, a former City Council member and mayor, is also pushing the city to sunset its gas utility. In an interview, he pointed to recent headlines as a call to action for Palo Alto and other cities.
"An extraordinary number of things have happened around the world — all bad — ranging from the ocean heating up to levels never seen before off the Florida coast to Phoenix having an incredible number of days of over 100 degrees, to New York City's sky turning orange and temperatures in Iran going so high that people are dying left and right," Klein said.
"The basic point we're making to the City Council is that as good as you've been so far, you've got to speed things up. The problem isn't slowing down; it's speeding up."
Shutting down gas won't be easy, given the large number of appliances throughout the city that rely on gas. Compounding matters, the city's Utilities Department does not believe that the current electric grid can accommodate the projected demand for electricity.
The city is now launching an effort to modernize the grid and add capacity, an effort that is expected to take seven years to complete and cost more than $220 million, according to a June presentation from utilities officials.
The city will also have to ensure that the upgraded grid is fully reliable and that power outages are rare and quickly resolved.
Klein said he believes the issue of reliability is a "red herring," given that he believes the city has a strong record of keeping the power on.
"If you compare the inconvenience — and it's hardly ever more than an inconvenience – that occurs when there's an outage, comparing that to the amount of greenhouse gas that is pulled into the system from the gas utility, it's not a close call," Klein said.
"It's really an issue brought about by people desperate to find a reason to preserve the status quo."
Comments
Registered user
Fairmeadow
on Aug 13, 2023 at 8:52 pm
Registered user
on Aug 13, 2023 at 8:52 pm
CARB is already mandating an end to new gas heaters and hot water heaters in a few years: Web Link
Since those are the big users of gas in Palo Alto, we're likely to see the local gas distribution system require rapidly increasing prices after that point in order to remain financially viable. We'll all be better off with a planned and managed shutdown, were we provide appropriate mandates for landlords and support for low-income households so that nobody is left behind in the process.
It's far far better to do this in a planned and community-supported way than to get stuck with a crisis later on.
Registered user
Adobe-Meadow
on Aug 13, 2023 at 10:01 pm
Registered user
on Aug 13, 2023 at 10:01 pm
I watched the PACC meeting where the young people spoke. All very ardent in their views. There will always be vocal groups that are trying to move the mountains. The City of Palo Alto appears to have more of these groups than other cities. Why is that?
I am assuming that we have qualified people who work in the Utilities department and are making wise choices given their vast knowledge of what is happening in the marketplace of utilities. That is a very complicated situation with a lot of agencies involved. What they have to do is evaluate how much electricity we need to offset the gas. And what I am reading in the papers we are not able to generate enough electricity at this time based on the infrastructure available. I am sure that if and when the bay area and state is able to generate enough electricity it all will happen. But it all will happen in steps.
While I congratulate the speakers on their presentations they are not the tax payers with the responsibility of replacing their utilities. And I do not believe that they are involved at a high enough level to be privy to all of the new developments in this venture. They need to finish school/college as a first priority. And the residents of the city need to see themselves as something other than pawns being moved around by unpredictable legislative activities which always appear to undo what ever we are trying to do. In the end we need their participation in this whole venture - no one city can do this by itself.
Registered user
Old Palo Alto
on Aug 13, 2023 at 10:26 pm
Registered user
on Aug 13, 2023 at 10:26 pm
[Post removed.]
Registered user
Green Acres
on Aug 14, 2023 at 6:36 am
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 6:36 am
@ReallyLiveHere
Because of the building and electrical renovations needed to install a heat pump water heater to replace our gas unit, it will cost over $10k, and likely over $20k, to do so. I believe many other Palo Altans in homes built shortly after WWII would face similar costs.
The majority of that cost would need to be paid by others in order for us to afford it. Would you support something like an income-based cap on conversion costs, with the remainder paid by the city? Perhaps a cap of 0 for incomes up to $50k, $2k for incomes up to $100k, $3k up to $150k, and so forth?
As is becoming ever clearer, China's emissions will be driving global greenhouse levels. It doesn't seem fair to force Palo Altans out of their homes because we can't figure out how to get China to stop increasing its emissions.
Registered user
Fairmeadow
on Aug 14, 2023 at 6:51 am
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 6:51 am
Meanwhile, China is starting a massive renewable deployment.
Web Link
This means that their emissions will start going down within a few years. Be really dumb if we used them as an excuse for inaction, and they used us as an excuse for inaction. We all need to cut emissions to zero.
Registered user
Downtown North
on Aug 14, 2023 at 8:20 am
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 8:20 am
The US emits more GHG than any country in the world.
Larry Klein is in denial when dismissing City power outages as trivial. Eventual conversion depends on our grid upgrade mentioned here, or we will see outages on a massive scale, creating substantial disruption. Enough with the magical thinking.
How home conversion will be paid for is a huge obstacle. Rewiring by many is needed, and many truly can’t afford a new cooktop, clothes washer, dryer, a home heating/cooling system and water heater. Add in a car. Where will the funds come from to subsidize?
I support conversion though it will make hardly a dent in worldwide climate change. But just wanting what you want when you want it doesn’t make it happen. Being realistic, doing the work and solving the problems does. Enough with the empty demands.
Registered user
Palo Verde
on Aug 14, 2023 at 10:12 am
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 10:12 am
We have a gas forced hot water heating system in our home. It uses a mix of radiant floor and baseboard radiators. I suspect this is fairly common in Palo Alto.
I did some research and was not able to find an heat pump alternative to this kind of heating system. Any kind of plan to shut off the Palo Alto's gas utility would need to include a reasonable alternative to for this kind of heating system. As far as I can tell, none exist currently.
Registered user
Community Center
on Aug 14, 2023 at 10:18 am
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 10:18 am
Yes, we do have a climate emergency and I was also idealistic and naive once upon a time to so can sympathize with the spirit but in the real world there are real problems that need (and can) be overcome but take time.
The Palo Alto Grid does not have even close to enough capacity to handle full electrification. The City of Palo Alto Utilities have dragged their heals on upgrading the grid for many years now and at best they will be done by 2030 so anything before that is unrealistic. Our electric utility is not resilient and the city has so far been moving slowly towards making it resilient. In addition, cutting off the gas will financially harm many retired and lower income folks. We'll get there but it will take time.
Registered user
Ventura
on Aug 14, 2023 at 10:21 am
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 10:21 am
Which government agency has calculated the extra burden on our electrical grid that will happen when all appliances, and all cars are mandated to be electrical and need to be charged daily? Plus with the heat more people will be running their air conditioners more often. It seems like certain zip codes in PA are constantly loosing electricity. Whatever happened to undergrounding the rest of PA's electrical wires which would make electrical pole crashes and downed trees irrelevant? Before we get rid of the gas utility shouldn't we make sure our electrical grid is ready to go?
Registered user
Evergreen Park
on Aug 14, 2023 at 10:24 am
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 10:24 am
How many of the "climate activists" use a bike as their primary source of transportation? How many of those who spoke in front of the council DROVE to that council meeting? This is so dumb. Yes, natural gas use needs to be phased out - not for the reasons they have said in this article but because the natural gas pipes leak to high heaven. However, it doesn't need to happen right away and it doesn't need to happen fast. As pointed out by several other commenters, electricity production is almost as damaging. The problem is consumption, period. The figure I picked up was that a car uses 70 times as much energy as a bike, even an electric assist one. 63% of Palo Alto's green house gas emissions come from CARS.
Also, how is this not linked to building of housing? I find that an appalling oversight.
Registered user
Green Acres
on Aug 14, 2023 at 10:27 am
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 10:27 am
@Comment
Actually, China emits by far the most greenhouse gases, now more than double what we emit.
RLH is perhaps "magical" in thinking they will start coming down within a few years. While they are building much renewable power, that doesn't cut emissions from the many coal plants which they also continue to build.
China has said they won't even start leveling off their annual emissions until 2030 or later. I believe them on this.
Registered user
Midtown
on Aug 14, 2023 at 10:36 am
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 10:36 am
Magical thinking. The impact on the California climate of shutting down gas appliances in Palo Alto and Menlo Park could not be measured with a microscope.
Registered user
Midtown
on Aug 14, 2023 at 10:52 am
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 10:52 am
Although transitioning from gas should be in our future....I feel Palo Alto issues are
1) not enough capacity in grid currently
2) more importantly, as stated earlier, how are "we" going to afford the transition. To replumb a gas stove and wire for electricity - perhaps induction - is very expensive. And to replace gas heating is at least a $15K expenditure. If "we" need to upgrade our electrical panel, as so many older homes need to do, it is a $10K + Not many of us can afford the $25K to convert and it just won't pencil out financially
Registered user
Leland Manor/Garland Drive
on Aug 14, 2023 at 11:28 am
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 11:28 am
Good smart people have to be representing us making decisions on facts and not the current narratives. Ideally the activists should move to China and / or India where most of the position does and will continue the be generated.
China is building cold fired power plants as fast as they can so they can benefit from the US strong drive to not ever being energy self sufficient. See how the CCP handles the protest.
See how the CCP handles the protest.
Registered user
Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Aug 14, 2023 at 11:38 am
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 11:38 am
"Klein said he believes the issue of reliability is a "red herring," given that he believes the city has a strong record of keeping the power on."
And I believe in Santa Claus.
Doesn't he realize that owners of e-vehicles have been advised for at least a year NOT to recharge their cars when demand is high and to recharge them DURING rush hour when commuters usually drive to work to reduce demands on the grid?
Has he missed the years of Spare the Air Days and all the pleas to shut off air conditioners TO REDUCE demands on the grid?
Registered user
Midtown
on Aug 14, 2023 at 11:47 am
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 11:47 am
The coalition may be alarmed by floods and wildfires and all. How will the coalition feel when there are days or weeks without electricity? Reliability is not a “red herring”. The city does not generate very much electricity. Almost all electricity in our area comes in over a fairly small number of transmission lines from a not large number of generators. This infrastructure is vulnerable to solar storms, terrorist activity, war, and many other events. I want to be able to boil water when the electric grid is out.
Registered user
Menlo Park
on Aug 14, 2023 at 11:47 am
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 11:47 am
I recently listened to a podcast by a Stanford researcher who noted that if we take all of the beef producing cattle in the world, they form the 3rd largest sources of methane polution in the world behind the US, and China. Burp, burp burp ...
So, if anyone is really serious about global waming, then going vegetarian or vegan is a step in the right direction. One can also consider meat-like subsitutes, eg, impossible burgers, chicken from stem cells(?), etc. Eating some species of fish is another solution ...
Registered user
Crescent Park
on Aug 14, 2023 at 12:07 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 12:07 pm
@BobH - I assume you are in an Eichler? Sherry Listgarten would be a great person to talk to about how to electrify an Eichler. I even see some of the things she's done on this listing on the Green Home Tour website: Web Link
Registered user
Downtown North
on Aug 14, 2023 at 12:20 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 12:20 pm
According to their website, Palo Alto Utilities have been providing carbon-neutral natural gas since 2017. If this is actually true, shutting down the CPAU gas utility will have zero impact on our net carbon emissions, by definition. If the carbon-neutral claim is not actually true, then CPAU is guilty of fraud for advertising their product as carbon-neutral when it is not. If that is the case, CPAU gas customers are due a rebate for the carbon offset they have been paying for but not receiving.
Web Link
Registered user
Palo Alto Hills
on Aug 14, 2023 at 12:32 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 12:32 pm
So funny to read an entire article about emissions, plus all of the comments, and not hear ONE WORD about overpopulation. There is no way at all to provide a decent life to 8 billion people without destroying the planet.
China ain't cuttin emissions their government is a propaganda machine don't believe anything they say
Registered user
Duveneck/St. Francis
on Aug 14, 2023 at 12:53 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 12:53 pm
I am concerned about electrifying our home as there are authentic logistical challenges and it will be very expensive.
Meanwhile, those of us deemed “high income” by our politicians will be required to pay for our home conversions as well as subsidizing many others.
- And no, we aren’t all billionaires like Zuck.
We have a very high cost of living here already, it strains many, including many of those deemed higher income.
I choose to drive an economical car for many years. We make careful,choices on spending.
How about a plan wherein NEW construction and MAJOR remodels must conform to increasingly strict edicts?
Tossing out perfectly good gas fired water heaters, cooktops etc. will result in a MOUNTAIN of unnecessary trash!
PA City Council, please be reasonable as we move forward on earth-conscious policies.
Local politicians (and utilities) do NOT have the right to have our incomes supplied to them each year so they can invade our privacy and set various rates per their choice. What if you’re just into a higher tier? How is this fair?
The “incentive” will be to lower one’s income and this is not a correct incentive for politicians to do!
We WANT people to,earn more and get ahead!
And yes, China is very significant cause of global climate change and they have an aggressive authoritarian agenda.
Don’t we?
Or do we want ever more dependents on government (i.e. the taxpayers)
Can you imagine the half hearted apologies when such personal info gets hacked!?
Simple actions now can make a difference, I am in favor of all practical ideas:
These include reduce meat eating, have authentic collections/recycling as opposed to using energy to pretend to make a difference but actually mostly virtue signal; when you replace your car buy one that is more energy concious. Reduce use of plastics (although one needs IVs in hospitals so consider before outlawing plastics in city limits).
Registered user
Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Aug 14, 2023 at 12:53 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 12:53 pm
"If the carbon-neutral claim is not actually true, then CPAU is guilty of fraud for advertising their product as carbon-neutral when it is not. If that is the case, CPAU gas customers are due a rebate for the carbon offset they have been paying for but not receiving."
We're also due our court-ordered settlement from the Miriam Green lawsuit against the city's practice of overcharging us for utilities to supplement the General Fund.
We also got stuck paying for the city's outside lawyers in San Diego who unsuccessfully appealed the settlement. Then the city had to formulate rules on who got paid when, giving precedence to those who are old and/or sick.
Well, we're all getting older and we still haven't seen a dime of our settlement or any notice that we're getting interest on the city's long delay.
Those "overcharges" were $20,000,000 every year for decades.
When voters not paying attention made those "overcharges" legal after the city threatened to cut the key city services -- police, fire, emergency dispatch etc -- and they saw their $1,000 monthly CPAU bills, it's an understatement to say they suffered voters remorse.
Registered user
Fairmeadow
on Aug 14, 2023 at 1:01 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 1:01 pm
There is a distinct racist history to how overpopulation is discussed: Web Link
High-birth-rate countries tend to be low-emissions-per-capita countries, so overpopulation complaints are often effectively saying "nonwhites can't have kids so that whites can keep burning fossil fuels" or "countries which caused the climate problem shouldn't take in climate refugees."
On top of this, as basic education reaches a larger chunk of the world, birth rates are dropping Web Link
We expect to achieve population stabilization this century as a result.
At the end of the day, it's the greenhouse gas concentrations that actually raise the temperature:
Web Link
This means that we need to take steps to stop burning fossil fuels and end deforestation: Web Link
Playing around with crypto-racist nonsense about overpopulation isn't going to get us there.
Registered user
Crescent Park
on Aug 14, 2023 at 1:03 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 1:03 pm
Anonymous asks "How about a plan wherein NEW construction and MAJOR remodels must conform to increasingly strict edicts?"
@Anonymous - this is already the case - Palo Alto's Reach Codes already mandate that new construction and major remodels be all-electric. This will include any new housing built to fulfill the approximately 6,000 new housing units the city needs to provide.
Registered user
Duveneck/St. Francis
on Aug 14, 2023 at 1:10 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 1:10 pm
@Paly02 thanks for the correction, I guess continuing policies like that makes sense…which was really what I meant.
I suppose fire sprinklers are also required in new construction (?), but my point was really that retrofitting homes isn’t easy for some of us. It isn’t just a financial matter, there’s logistics, too.
I am intelligent enough to have looked into this. Our home is > 20 years old and has a certain configuration, of course, which informs why I’m concerned about edicts tossed out possibly in near future by the City Council requiring changes to be in compliance with the code.
Registered user
Community Center
on Aug 14, 2023 at 1:13 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 1:13 pm
Big thanks to the student activists for making this call to action!
A few clarifications to commenters above:
1) Grid upgrades are set to be complete by 2030. This is also the gas sunset date that is being proposed, so there is not a grid issue.
2) The major issue with natural gas is methane emissions, so our neutral carbon is not a panacea.
2) There is no scenario where we don't pay for climate change. Models show acting quickly is the least expensive path.
3) Tune on on June 21, when we present a lot of info on how we can pay for full-city electrification equitably--and create a model that can be replicated, multiplying our effect.
Registered user
Crescent Park
on Aug 14, 2023 at 1:31 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 1:31 pm
@Anonymous, I agree that retrofits are very hard - I have been looking into switching out my gas cooktop for an induction one but that's a tough lift. So far, I've just made sure to use my gas cooktop as little as possible since I have other kitchen equipment that is electric. But I believe retrofits will have to happen at some point! The question is what timeline makes sense? I'm looking to other cities' work on this as well - many governments are trying to solve this retrofit problem and I have confidence that someone will figure it out soon!
Registered user
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 14, 2023 at 2:48 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 2:48 pm
I find this thread depressing. Young people are begging our fossil-fuel addicted generation to do what we can to avert disaster in their lifetimes. OUR children need us to work with them. We must do what we can while we can.
As a senior, I ride a bike for my primary transportation--except for longer trips over five miles. Most of my trips are shorter than that. It's just not that hard in a town where the roads are flat and shady. And almost everything is within a five mile radius of my home. My husband and I have been gradually transitioning to electric as we replace appliances. We feel it is the right thing to do.
These large-scale transitions are going to be expensive. The sooner we make a commitment to do it in an organized way, the more smoothly transition can be rolled out for all. It will take time. Let's start sooner rather than later. This is already affecting worldwide food supplies. Oceans are warming at a dramatic rate. Anyone who gardens surely has noticed the devastating effect recent weather has had on trees and plants and the many creatures who depend on them. If a well educated community like ours cannot act on what we know is a clear and present danger, if we will not lead, what hope is there for our kids?
The argument that "China isn't doing it so I'm not gonna'" is childish (and somewhat incorrect, a separate conversation). Adults, in the face of a crisis, LEAD. We choose to stand up a make a difference. We do not blubber like children and wait for someone else to take responsibility and lead toward solutions. Grow up. Step up. Our children's and grandchildren's futures depend on it. By the way, 30- and 40- and 50-year olds. I'm talking to you too. It's time to step up to your civic duty. That is what adults do. Democracy is not a spectator sport. Less time pecking at iPhones and more time spent effecting change through action would be a good start for all of us. What have you done for your community lately?
Registered user
another community
on Aug 14, 2023 at 3:19 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 3:19 pm
I'm so glad to have grown up in Palo Alto in the 50's and 60's, long before the current crop of clowns inherited the mantle of faux-leadership. Back then, when children attended a city council meeting, it was to listen and learn, not to hector, lecture, and to demonstrate the ignorance they had acquired while attending our once great schools.
When you folks are done with your virtue signaling, only multi-billionaires will be able to afford to live in Palo Alto and they'll all be running pirate diesel generators in vented, underground vaults to keep the lights on while they provide quotes to PAO about their commitment to a green and sustainable environmental policy. And you can take that one to Silicon Valley Bank. Er, or what's left of it.
Registered user
Downtown North
on Aug 14, 2023 at 4:44 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 4:44 pm
Oh!
Another power outage in town.
Police notice says 3:54 this afternoon.
Hmmmmm.
Registered user
Embarcadero Oaks/Leland
on Aug 14, 2023 at 4:59 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 4:59 pm
Anyone know where the latest outage is/was? The outage map and Twitter notifications were blank
Registered user
Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Aug 14, 2023 at 5:28 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 5:28 pm
I appreciate what these young people are doing and hope to see more about their efforts in the future.
In our household, we would like exactly what they are asking for, a program to help us convert our whole house heating to electric (supported by our solar). The water heater program was well-conceived; something similar for whole house systems would be really appreciated. Seriously, will convert as soon as it's available.
The city has an interest in this as well. The natural gas infrastructure is dangerous in an earthquake in ways most of us don't like to think about, and the city would have a hard time paying to fix. It's aging, too.
I like that the young people were so specific in a way that was doable and will make a difference.
Registered user
Green Acres
on Aug 14, 2023 at 5:52 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 5:52 pm
@Andy
Re: "2) There is no scenario where we don't pay for climate change. Models show acting quickly is the least expensive path."
This is all dependent on many types of models, which tend to overestimate costs for various reasons. The bottom line is that an economically-reasonable "social cost of carbon" leads to the conclusion that acting many decades later, when the world is richer due to fossil-fueled development, is actually the least expensive path. I think most people now acknowledge that the more we accelerate greenhouse emissions cuts, the more expensive it will be, both initially and on a continuing basis.
Re: "3) Tune on on June 21, when we present a lot of info on how we can pay for full-city electrification equitably--and create a model that can be replicated, multiplying our effect"
Doesn't waiting almost a year until 2024 for that info seem a bit silly? Can you give us a hint now?
Registered user
Adobe-Meadow
on Aug 14, 2023 at 7:32 pm
Registered user
on Aug 14, 2023 at 7:32 pm
We built an all electric house. Oh boy stove, heating cooling, charging the Tesla. We went to 400 amp service, so did our neighbor. Oops, that means new transformer, after a long supply chain delay we got … one of the few. Oh, once another couple neighbors switch, that means a new substation!
A few more … new larger bore wires to carry the load. A few more conversations and we’ll need to upgrade the main stations.
OK, this will take a minimum of 50 years to roll out. Go ahead and start, but the costs multiply and be realistic.
Registered user
College Terrace
on Aug 15, 2023 at 2:17 am
Registered user
on Aug 15, 2023 at 2:17 am
The biggest climate calamity is our unhoused . No matter how many electric heat pumps installed in SFH or calls for the elimination of gas powered appliances are sought , until our housing crisis is seriously address all else is window dressing.
Registered user
College Terrace
on Aug 15, 2023 at 6:53 am
Registered user
on Aug 15, 2023 at 6:53 am
@Seer - your last bit of advice, be realistic, speaks precisely to what is missing in Palo Alto. I left last night's CC meeting wondering what it will take to get Staff to start connecting the dots instead of addressing each issue as though it is a stand-alone matter.
Registered user
Downtown North
on Aug 15, 2023 at 5:35 pm
Registered user
on Aug 15, 2023 at 5:35 pm
@Andy:
“ 2) The major issue with natural gas is methane emissions, so our neutral carbon is not a panacea. ”
Could you tell us more about to what degree CPAU is responsible for methane emissions and how eliminating its natural gas service would impact them? I can’t imagine residential gas distribution leakage as being a primary driver of climate change but I could be wrong.
And panacea or not, the public perception is certainly that burning natural gas generates carbon emissions, and that we buy carbon offsets to effectively mitigate them. If this is not actually true, then I think the claim of fraud is accurate.
Registered user
Fairmeadow
on Aug 15, 2023 at 5:39 pm
Registered user
on Aug 15, 2023 at 5:39 pm
In Boston, where a research team undertook measurements, about 2.5% of gas entering the distribution system is leaked: Web Link
I'd expect Palo Alto to be similar, though I don't think anybody has done that kind of survey here.
It also results in a big chunk of CO2 emissions when the gas is burned instead of leaked. Using sustainably sourced electricity and not burning methane in hour homes and businesses will get rid of that as well.
Registered user
Green Acres
on Aug 15, 2023 at 8:25 pm
Registered user
on Aug 15, 2023 at 8:25 pm
@ReallyLiveHere
Thanks for the link to the Boston study! The "extra" 1.5% over what they were expecting seems all to be ascribed to post-meter (end user equipment) leaks. Given that the area they were looking at (centered on BU/Copley) is much older and much denser than Palo Alto, I would expect lots more old stoves and poorly-maintained connections leading to household leaks there than here in Palo Alto.
So, seems like CPAU distribution system is likely not a big deal for greenhouse emissions, but that they should encourage people to make sure their gas connections are tight or more likely that they are using pilot-light-free appliances.
The research paper mentioned a study where methane measurement equipment was driven around city streets on the East Coast. Doing that here in Palo Alto seems like it would be a low-cost way of directly measuring whether or not there is a methane emissions issue here.
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Fairmeadow
on Aug 16, 2023 at 10:59 am
Registered user
on Aug 16, 2023 at 10:59 am
I have started exploring electrification of my already energy efficient home.
What I am finding is that options are expensive, and the technology is not quite there either. Some of us may be higher income, but don't have expendable income to upgrade our homes - I need the money for my kid's education and not a new electric water heater. And I can't imagine retirees living in Eichlers are going to be able to just upgrade either.
Can we please be sensible about this transition and how we are going to fund it?
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Crescent Park
on Aug 17, 2023 at 10:53 am
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on Aug 17, 2023 at 10:53 am
As we witness the devastation in Lahaina we should pay attention to the comments about the preparation, or lack of, for such an event. The silence of the siren system is tragic but the failure to act on multiple warnings and recommendations concerning a fire hazard are perhaps more instructive. Recommendations for fire breaks and brush clearing were ignored for years. Palo Alto is less likely to have a fire but the comparison with the city’s attention to potential flood risks is hard to ignore. Despite years of acknowledgement of the flood risk of San Francisquito Creek due to poorly designed bridges and inadequate brush clearing the risk remains. I am sure residents of Lahaina would have liked cheaper internet access, nicer municipal buildings, public art, green fuels …whatever their city council debated…but in the end providing public safety in a timely manner should remain at the top of every agenda. We know the risk, we know the solution we shouldn’t wait more years to act.
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University South
on Aug 21, 2023 at 2:41 pm
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on Aug 21, 2023 at 2:41 pm
Palo Alto Utilities does a great job in procuring low carbon electricity. But that is not what it sells. They sell what comes from the Grid. Palo Alto electricity is no different than what Menlo Park or Mt View gets. The GRID operator has a website with lots of information, see: Web Link . In 2021 I tabulated amount of our electricity that is generated from natural gas. For 2021 just a little over 35% comes from natural gas. There were a couple days in the summer where more that 50% of our electricity was generated by natural gas power plants.
See: Web Link
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Greenmeadow
on Aug 21, 2023 at 3:18 pm
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on Aug 21, 2023 at 3:18 pm
@pestocat: The best place to look for how much of California's electricity comes from gas is the CEC's annual reports: Web Link
In 2021, about 37.9% came from gas, with another 3% from coal, 0.2% from "other", and 6.8% from "unspecified". That totals 47.9% that is not known to be renewable, nuclear, or large hydro.
All homes in the state use grid electricity, not including behind-the-meter power. And all power providers buy grid electricity to match their customers' use. The only difference is what the power providers *sell* into the grid. Palo Alto has a portfolio of clean energy contracts, and it sells that electricity into the grid. The more that power providers do that, the greener our grid gets.
It is important to know that Palo Alto tends to make a profit when it sells its electricity to the grid. That is, what we sell into the grid is worth more than what we buy from the grid. That generally means that we are displacing pretty dirty electricity, which is when prices are highest, with our clean electricity. The emissions we are inducing with our purchases are covered by the emissions we are displacing with our sales. So, good for us, and good for the grid. This deserves a longer explanation though!
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Monroe Park
on Aug 25, 2023 at 8:03 pm
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on Aug 25, 2023 at 8:03 pm
I subscribe to wren.co to achieve "net zero", which supposedly covers my gas furnace and water heater (and car, and plane flights, etc.). That turns out to be a LOT cheaper than replacing them. Can't we fix the leaks? Leaks can be detected by gas meters, found with visual tracing agents, and sealed. Incomplete combustion can be fixed with afterburners. My water heater and furnace are nicely confined, and in a shared closet where "negative pressure" could be used to siphon off any residual emission, which should be none, and pump it somewhere for neutralization or recycling. Why don't we fix broken things and make them work without polluting? I would happily pay for that extra expense. Instead of outlawing energy sources, outlaw their improper usage. We have all the energy we could want, so we can afford to use some extra to make it non-polluting (afterburners, pumps, filters, processing, ...).
More generally, we have to develop green energy tech and export it to the whole world ASAP, subsidized as necessary to make it the cheapest choice for them. Developing countries, including China and India, are likely to do what's best for them short-term. Established bad practices are hard to dislodge. We basically have to buy it all up so that they choose to start over and use the new green tech, because that's the cheapest choice available to them.