Judge: Sit-lie law could be discriminatory

Wrong. I've been told to stay within limits when sitting at a sidewalk cafe. The rules are being enforced. Panhandlers at Whole Foods are a drag and make me feel uncomfortable shopping there. They are losing a lot of visits from patrons because of the panhandlers intrusive presence. Less lawyer banter and more common sense please.

[Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.] ANYONE who contributes one cent to Victor Frost is aiding and abetting his behavior. And anyone who thinks its cute and funny and magnanimous and 'democratic' to vote for him is abusing the right to vote and making sensible decisions for the good of the community. Those who do so make a mockery of the voting process. I've HaD IT with Victor Frost. Enough already. Give him no money, no publicity, no votes and a bus ticket out of town.

Audit him, IRS.

Does anyone know who is representing Victor in this lawsuit?

I really hope it isn't some pro bono effort by a local law firm.

Mr. Frost is being represented by Susan Shores, a public defender.

In Kathmandu Nepal, the police will hit beggars and yell at you. They have signs posted on all the streets telling you not to give money to the panhandlers. Namaste was a joke that all the panhandlers would yell at you as they chased you for money.

Palo Alto is one of the worst panhandling cities in the bay area. Ive seen some of the same bums for 20 years now, and at times the city has been overrun by homeless people, drunks, panhandlers, and mentally unstable people. Its a shame for them, but enough is enough.

Victor Frost is obnoxious, and needs to be dealt with.

A pity we can't bring back vagrancy laws and the floater. Base vagrancy on sanitary requirements [no visible means of sanitation] and the floater as opening up employment opportunities elsewhere.

The problem is solved if people stop giving money to beggars.

A system of tokens that can only be used for healthy food, not booze or tobacco, woulds also work.

Frost has fee housing in RWC and access to free food there.

Just ignore him.

I hate going to whole foods and being visually acosted by Frost and others. He is obnoxious as mentioned above. But obnoxious is not a crime. Nor is putting up irrelevant comments as Fireman is prone to do. But I try to just ignore him so that's what I will do with Victor Frost. He is laughing at all of us but only if we let him.

If you don't like me, don't talk to, or look at me.
I can do I want. I have the law on my side When I'm on the council you will al be sorry.

VOTE FOR FROST

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One thing I've noticed about the homeless, panhandlers, drunks and druggies is that the vast majority represent the baby boomer generation. I see the same tactics used in business and politics as well by said generation. We need to realize that the days of sloppy hippy behavior, greed and entitlement are rapidly coming to a close. The rest of the world is catching up and passing us and we have no time, or resources to hold your hand like a child anymore.

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Does anyone have a dollar count of how much Victor costs each of us daily, as taxpaying citizens of Palo Alto?
So long as in the spirit of giving, we continue to dole out services to these bums, they will continue to bleed us out and laugh it off.
How pathetic that a public defender and a judge, who's salaries we pay, dare make a case for discrimination.
The folks sitting outdoors at the restaurants, are paying patrons of those establishments. When was the first or last time that Victor dropped a nickel in the till at Whole Foods or Village Stationers?
What has Victor done for you lately? If any of you vote him in for a council seat, you truly deserve what you get. He has made a mockery of our democratic process as will you.

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It's bad enough to see him there, but seeing his stuff there when he's not gives the impression that he owns the space. If it's lawful, then I suggest we call the police to clean up after him each time he leaves junk behind on a public way. Maybe he'll get tired of resupplying and...move on?

The sad part is that there are truly needy people who through no fault of their own have fallen into hard times. The individuals like Frost and some University Avenue regulars have created this as a career and have hurt advocacy for those who really need assistance.

He is hurting the very people he pretends to be helping.

I am not a fan of Victor Frost, and I'd rather not have to pass close by him across from Whole Foods or in front of Printer's Inc., but I can see the legal merit in his argument.

According to the article, "The city contends the law is in place to protect pedestrians from accidents due to sidewalk obstacles." The city's contention seems weak to me. The amount of sidewalk that is blocked by Victor Frost when he sits across from Whole Foods is less than the amount of sidewalk blocked by the outside food displays and shopping carts directly in front of the store. In other words, it seems to me that the sidewalk obstacles that Whole Foods creates in front of its store are more obstructive and more likely to cause accidents than Victor Frost sitting where he does.

Similarly, there are sections of California Avenue where planters and dining tables narrow the sidewalk (even more than Victor Frost does in front of Printer's Inc.) so that pedestrians must form a single file in order to make their way down the sidewalk. (Although, I think the sit-lie ordinance only applies to the Downtown area. Is pedestrian safety in the Downtown area more important to the City than pedestrian safety on Cal Ave?)

If the purpose of the sit-lie ordinance is to protect pedestrian safety, then the rules regarding encroachment should be consistent with that goal, and should be enforced uniformly for businesses and panhandlers alike.

It is widely understood that the sit-lie ordinance was extended to include the Whole Foods section of Homer Ave. specifically to prevent Victor Frost from sitting across the street from the Whole Foods store. I recall that during the City Council's discussion of the agenda item, a council member even stated that the ordinance might be named the Victor Frost ordinance because that was obviously the intention of the ordinance. (The City attorneys must have cringed when that statement was made). I recall reading newspaper articles that talked about the extension of the ordinance and its purpose.

I agree that panhandling has been a problem, but, if the City undertakes to address the problem with a controversial sit-lie ordinance, then it should have been better-prepared to face a discrimination-based lawsuit.

I agree with Merit's comment. Bad facts can create bad law. The city has some bad facts.

I cannot believe the mean spirited comments above. Victor Frost has been a member of our community for at least the 20 years I have lived here. He is choosing to live his life for whatever reason, differently than I would do. I do not support panhandling and do not give money to him or any other panhandler. Instead, I donate to Innvision and other nonprofits that support the homeless and others not as fortunate as I am.

However, I have found Mr. Frost to be harmless, and never rude. He simply sits with his sign. He doesn't harass anyone nor does he affect my decision to shop at Whole Foods or California Avenue stores. It seems likely to me, from the judge's comments in the article that there has been selective enforcement of the sit-lie ordinance. I think those who are offended by Mr. Frost should simply ignore him. Would you think any differently if he simply sat there and didn't ask for money? What if he had a physical disability? Probably not. There are all kinds of eccentrics in this society. As long as he is not breaking any laws (i.e. dui etc.) then I think he should be left alone to live as he pleases.

A pity my direct response to Victor's boast and threat was expunged. I'm gonna have to start saving file copies - too much goes down he memory hole.

Some have argued that the panhandlers don't create a sidewalk obstacle.

For me, they did at least on one recent occasion.

As I was steering my kids around the panhandler (in front of Village Stationers), I skinned my ankle against the fire hydrant.

I used to be sort of intimidated by Frost until I talked with him one day, asking if he wanted extra produce from my home garden. He did, and went on to describe how he would redistribute it to a network of people etc etc. I soon figured out he was a bit disillusional, or anyway, that's my interpretation. I think compassion is OK and doesn't actually cost a lot in terms of time or money. I think just ignoring him but sort of thinking good thoughts his way - "hey buddy hope things get better for you" - is a reasonable reaction. There aren't too many panhandlers in Palo Alto. I live downtown and walk around there all the time. I am surprised that people don't want to even see poor or unstable people, people whose families aren't helping. OK, don't give them money. I don't advocate that. But quit acting like this is some horrible epidemic!!!

Keep in mind InnVision is paying for Frost's Redwood City apartment so if you are donating $$ to InnVision, so are you. InnVision will not get any more money or volunteer time from me. While we are paying for his apartment he is living in his car

Visually Assaulting? Seriously? One of the worst panhandling cities in the bay area? Come on. That's just crazy talk. Have you ever been outside of Palo Alto?

What you are all saying is that these unattractive people do not fit into your neat little idea of an upper class town. No garbage allowed. You fear them because you don't understand them. Your precious eyes should never lay sight to something so wretched as a person that is hungry and dirty. Not all homeless people are criminals. Not all people sitting on the benches down town are out to rob you. Not all of them are robbing the system. Not all of them are lazy slugs who simply find it easier to sit in the elements all day long being spat on by rich people rather than work. You feel guily as you pretend not to hear them when they ask for change as you walk into Starbucks. You know that anyone that can actually afford to shop at Whole Foods makes enough money that they should help others, but you opt to keep you money intead. So you translate that all into visious attacks on these people in a forum most don't ever see.

Victor is taking advantage of Innvisions program, and they are looking into it now that they know about it. That is wrong, he is taking from someone that really needs it. He is clearly not helping his cause. I wish he would see that. He chooses to live on the street for reasons that are a mystery to me. But it is his choice. You can not ban that type of freedom. Perhaps he thinks he's giving a voice to those not heard, I don't know.

And seriously, if visually assualting is the best you can come up with you should find something else to be angry about.

Mister articule (as some call him) should be heeded ---

In his words from LMW statement regarding a meal program:

"The USDA comedies program will be a large part of this new protect. Please, no more dumpster food..."

Frost is not needy, and he is definitely taking advantage of the system.
I can't understand why we are wasting so much time an print on him. There are many nicer and needier panhandlers one would like to help - he is simply a blight on the landscape.

audit him is right......we are the ones spending our hard earned money in the stores and restaurants..we must have a right not to be solicited by these career beggars....i will not go to downtown palo alto anymore...it is frightening...the last time was a sunday afternoon...and....one guy clearly stoned yelling profanities...that was it for me....

A friend had a conversation with Victor and he just went off on her, carrying on about his rights etc. when she approached to ask about his capagin and asked him if he really did have an apartment in Redwood City. No one needs to be screamed at. That's not visual assault it's verbal abuse.

I'll buy a sandwich and juice once in a while for a beggar near a supermarket, but I never give cash, and I only give to people who are standing, not sitting. The problem with that spot at Whole Foods is that it's hard to navigate a cart around someone sitting on the sidewalk that close to the crosswalk, and forget about it if you have a child with you. My solution is that I just don't go to Whole Foods anymore. I don't need to run a gauntlet just to get into a grocery store.

I'll buy a sandwich and juice once in a while for a beggar near a supermarket, but I never give cash, and I only give to people who are standing, not sitting. The problem with that spot at Whole Foods is that it's hard to navigate a cart around someone sitting on the sidewalk that close to the crosswalk, and forget about it if you have a child with you. My solution is that I just don't go to Whole Foods anymore. I don't need to run a gauntlet just to get into a grocery store.

This all would be a non-issue if the streets were owned up to the street centerlines by the abutting property owners, with a long list of easements reserved by the City for: public passage, not rest; utilities, etc, etc, etc (long list).

Then, a sitter like Frost exceeds the easement for passage, is a trespassor, and can be ejected. There is also no claim for discrimination because there is no government action.

Other towns in the USA are set up this way. Palo Alto, how about granting with easements??

I have heard Frost yelling at other panhandlers whom he feels are invading his space. He cursed and yelled racial slurs at a black wheel chair bound man. He is abusing the area and has a car, computer, cell phone and a free apt. We should have it so good. No work, pay no taxes, and have people just hand us money and food. Poor guy, looks like he is starving.

Victor Frost is the new face of America.

Americans used to be known for their get up and go and their can do spirt.

With people like Frost around we will soon be known for our sit down and beg spirt.

Is that what we want for our country and for our children's future?

Is pan handling really a respectable life style chose?

I see nothing good in Frost.

The man is a bum, plain and simple, and if we lose sight of that we lose sight of what once made America great.