I like Skelly's approach!
Cudos for all Gunn and Paly students for the great job!

The index has many critics. It has the advantage of excluding any school whose student body (more than 50%) is chosen by placement test.

Gunn senior Max Keeler says that "the school's culture is "self-challenging," largely due to the large Asian population at the school."

Maybe he will care to explain why School for the Talented and Gifted (dallas) is ranked #1. Maybe is it because it has a majority of minority population (28.4% Hispanic, 23.9% Black, 5.5% Asian/Pacific Islander, and 0.5% American Indian/Alaskan Native) , the school's culture is "self-challenging," largely due to the large minority population at the school?

Maybe Max will care to explain why Masterman in Philadelphia with a majority of minority and poor students and very large percentage a black students 31% has a higher ranking than Gunn High. Would he say that's because the school's culture is "self-challenging," largely due to the large black population at the school?

The same would go for Washington -Lee in DC -were minority population is the major percentage or Lincoln Park, Chicago with its overwhelming minority black and poor?
.Why are they ranked much better than Gunn High?

I could go on, of course, all above schools rank better or much better than any of the PA schools. [Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]
The capacity to assess reality in all its forms and not live off perception is one of the most valuable of legacies that a school can gift to its students. Education is about that. Gunn High should do better. They could start by trying to change a culture of self congratulation, elitism and bias.

Sohil, every school is different. You can't simply compare racial makeups of different schools and say that because different schools in the "top 100" all have different students, race automatically is not a factor. Again, every school is different.

As a current Gunn student (the student body president, at that) Max has as strong a grasp on the culture and academic environment there as anybody. He has every authority to speak about it; he has experienced it firsthand from within the system. That's what education is all about after all: unique experiences offered by a unique school in a unique setting. All these numbers that people introduce to evaluate and rank qualities of education are mostly garbage.

I disagree with you , Nate. When I arrived to Palo alto in 1982 Gunn Hill was already a top school and the Asian population almost non-existent compared with now. The "numbers that people introduce to evaluate and rank qualities of education are but one aspect of measuring education . But what's more telling is that experience is clouded by perception and so is bias. Max can experience Gunn High as he wishes but that doesn't mean that what he said bears any resemblance to reality.

" That's what education is all about after all: unique experiences offered by a unique school in a unique setting"
Education has a strong component of preparing youth for the world in which they will have to live and work: some boss, even the artistic ones, will ask you for the numbers.
Tell her numbers are garbage.

As a graduating senior who has taken 11 APs over the last two years let me break it down for y'all.

There is no "stressed" culture at Gunn. Everyone communally complains, but at the end of the day everyone comes out with a B (this is the average grade for the majority of APs).

The system is such that, that it promotes student to take APs. We are not forced to take a class, but many students take one because all of their academic peers are, so they feel confident taking the classes as well.

The advantage is clear, as next year Max and I will be going to UC Berkeley where AP tests over 3 count toward credit. It saves us tons of money, time, and excuses us from large, introductory classes.

Sohill, while you may snipe Max for his lack of Statistical analysis, it's ironic because he has probably taken AP Stat. His statements were clearly qualitive, as we allow Newsweek and US news and world report do the math. It just goes to show, that you can make anyone look like an ass if you try.

The bottom line is the culture at Gunn is academically challenging, but creates batches of successful students, not standardized-test-drones.

gunnsfastest:

See you at Cal then! Just a heads up... AP Physics C isn't worth anything here except for 5 measly graduation credits. Cal doesn't use the credit to waive any classes so my $190 from last year feels wasted.

If you're thinking med school or grad school, most do NOT take AP credits at all. You'll end up taking most intro classes again. Of course the experience at Gunn makes college classes feel much easier and less stressful at Berkeley.

I agree sohill needs to CHILL out. max has a point and i hate to say it but the asian kids are the most stressed out and it helps keep gunn competitive. it's not a bad thing, its just how it is.

Sohill,

A pretty big chip you have on your shoulder.

"Maybe he will care to explain why School for the Talented and Gifted (dallas) is ranked #1."

Keeler suggested an explanation for why Gunn's scores are high. He didn't propose it as a general explanation for achievement around the country, so your remarks are just out in left field. What bias do you imagine poor Keeler has succumbed to?

Max succumbed to the bias of attributing to a particular race (asian) a particular characteristic, which besides not being true (there are millions and millions and billion even that do not fit the profile) is also a bad explanation. Gunn High has been a great school ever since it opened asians or no asians.
The point of comparing it with others is to say that achievement is not the province of any race and lack of achievement is also not the province of any race.

Max could have said that there are students who set the tone, just that. I know that there area many non- asians who also set the tone... Let us not divide people by race. Not nice.

Jeez, sohill, he's a kid (though I'm sure a smart one), lighten up. The conventional wisdom is that there are a lot of asians at Gunn; Gunn is a revved up place academically; the asians are some of the most revved up; ergo the conventional wisdom. I agree with you that the conventional wisdom is wrong, but Max didn't invent the idea, he just repeated it. No need to be mean.

Strivers and achievers have, do, and will come in a variety of types and colors, which will ebb and flow over time. Heck, there were a heap of Jewish basketball stars in the '30s - '50s.

Sohill
"Max can experience Gunn High as he wishes but that doesn't mean that what he said bears any resemblance to reality."

Actually it bears all the resemblance in the world to reality. Perception is reality. It's perceived that at Gunn, Asians in general (oh-oh here come's a generalization) are extremely motivated and hard working and pressured to excel academically and smart. Doesn't mean that's true of all Asians, nor does it mean tht whites and blacks are not and hispanics are not.

It's just a common perception with a lot of anecdotal and probably statistical support. Sooooo Sohill - chill. Be civil. Try to understand a different point of view than just your own and don't go around assigning racial bias when Max was just trying to offer a simple explanation deeply steeped in popular perception, and again probably statistics as well.

Sohill,

"Max succumbed to the bias of attributing to a particular race (asian) a particular characteristic"

No, he didn't do this.

"... is also a bad explanation. Gunn High has been a great school ever since it opened asians or no asians."

Your comment is illogical. Gunn in the past is irrelevant to explaining Gunn's success now.

Reading between the lines, Max suggested that 1. Asians at Gunn now perform disproportionately well, and 2. This motivates other kids.

I don't know Gunn, but 1 seems quite likely given Asian academic achievement around the state. The only way to really know is to have data breaking out achievement by Asians at Gunn, so for now I'll go with Max's anecdotal observations over your racial theorizing.

Your comments come off as extremely defensive, and you infer a lot of meaning that is not there.

I'll second wow: Chill.

A better topic to discuss would be the actual advantages of all this when you get into college. Many would argue that AP classes not only help you get into colleges, but are of benefit afterwards. From my experience as a college parent, once you are there all the effort put in does nothing towards your ultimate degree. Many colleges still expect you to do GE classes which are basically repeating high school stuff already learned here in Palo Alto schools.

If this is the norm, then why are we actually pushing our kids to do AP classes if it has no real benefit.

Arden,

Where do you get your statistics that 75% of Gunn and 60% of Paly students received scores high enough for college credit? A score of 3 is passing and according to their respective 2007-2008 School Profiles, 94% of both Gunn and Paly students received a score of 3 or better on APs from May 2007 testing. At Gunn 51% received the top score of 5, 49% at Paly. Both very high and pretty close. It is up to an individual college whether or not they grant college credit for passing an AP.

The difference between the high schools is highlighted by the number of AP tests taken. In May 2007, 522 students took 1487 tests at Gunn and at Paly 421 students took 867 tests. Gunn administered close to 1700 tests this year.

I understand where Skelly is coming from in terms of being a beacon to other districts, but I am still disappointed that we are again participating in this Newsweek survey. There are many paths to success and the APs are just one measure.

But what's wrong with recognizing that many of our first and second generation Asian (Chinese, Korean, Indian) students are challenging themselves and doing extremely well academically, and not just on APs - look at our current lists of Gunn and Paly National Merit Scholars, about 9% of the senior class overall which is unusually high, even for PAUSD, with Asian students really over-represented on the list. Max knows what he is talking about. In challenging themselves, many are setting a higher bar for all students.

Are all Asians top of the class, no. Are others prevented from being at the top of the class, no. Most families who move to PAUSD, move here for the schools because they value education. Our high schools offer a wide variety of rigorous classes based on student interest. I'm sure other districts with other socio-economic demographics have their own realities. I wouldn't read too much into the Newsweek ranking.

Hi Gunn parent,
Thanks for the careful reading. I noticed the error this morning and the story is corrected now to indicate only 4 or higher earns college credit. Also, I'd be curious to know the attribution of the numbers you cite. Arden

Gunn parent,
Just to make sure my answer was clear: as you'll see in the story now, the Newsweek list states the percentage of graduating seniors who at some point scored 3 or higher on an AP exam. Jay Mathews calls that the "Equity and Excellence rate." That's the percentage I cite in the article. Arden

Dear Gunn parent, Gunn has always been a great school with an excellent faculty body which is a major component of education. It has an excellent leadership. It's not due to Asians (even those "Asians" carefully construed in this forum so that other asians are not included).
But the methodology for the challenge index rankings has a lot of critics: it's flawed in many aspects and simplistic. I too do not ready too much into these rankings- and we know Gunn would always be a top school.

Arden - Your numbers make sense as % of seniors...thanks for clarifying. The "School Profile", which contains the AP test stats, is listed on each school's website - it's listed on the left on the Gunn home page or from Paly's home page click General Info to find it.

Sohill - I agree that Gunn has always been a top school. Stating that our growing Asian population is challenging themselves is not meant to take away from Gunn leadership, faculty or other students - but it may be one factor in the increasingly high number of APs being taken there.

I'm glad this article touched on some of the flaws in the ranking process. The no. 1 school screens applicants. It's small and, thus, the percentage of kids taking AP exams is high. I think, frankly, that Newsweek should have separate lists for magnet schools and schools that are open to the kids in their draw areas.

I also think the rankings encourage schools to push kids to take the tests--I'd rather see scoring that takes into account how *well* the kids do on the tests.

There's a real issue with the quality of AP classes. Back in my ancient days, there were few AP courses, but the ones that existed did actually have college-level work.

We are very lucky that we live some where with such good schools. My dad teaches in east San Jose and he says something like 50% of seniors are not Graduating. also he says there are more Girls pregnant at the school than seniors with GPAs higher than 3.00.

What percentage of Gunn's high-achieving Asians received costly multi-year outside of school prepping and tutoring in advance of each year of Math? I would argue a lot of this is not innate ability but carefully parent-managed prepping. It certainly is not a level playing field when many come into a course already fully prepped on the curriculum.

What I mean is that this is a manufactured education process run by the parents.
If you ask me there is too much emphasis on getting the almighty A ( especially in Math) to beat out your peers..and little love of learning or serendidity or personal choice involved in leaning towards certain areas of "academics" here. I respect the student who makes his/her own choices and drives the focus - whether it be into Math, Art or whatever else. If the student drives the process, it shouldn't be necessary to engineer an A by having the student forced to complete the curriculum in advance. The student should learn in class. And don't tell me every Gunn student is a Math genius - I don't buy it.

pausd - so what if parents (Asian or otherwise) enlist their kids in extra-curricular learning activities. And why should the student just "learn in class?" It's a choice available to most just as extra-curricular soccer or volleyball clubs. The world is as level a playing field as you chose to make it.


If you want to play varisity soccer, your chances are vastly improved by playing club soccer. If you want to get A+ in math, your chances are greatly improved if you get additional math tutoring.

I'm with you in that I don't think it's necessary for my kid to get outside tutoring. The PAUSD program suits him just fine. But I'll be damned if I'm going to whine about some other parent's choice to offer their kid additional tutoring if that's what they want to do. I'm not precluded from doing the same, and the extra work the other kids do only benefits my kid in case he wants to ask a friend for some help.

Enough with the victim status.

My daughter is graduating from PALY next month, is by most measures a very good student, and will be attending what is regarded as a highly selective college. We have visited numerous colleges over the last couple of years, as recently as last month, and heard many presentations from admissions officers and students in the colleges about what goes into evaluating students for offers of admission to some of the more highly sought after schools.

My impression is that both Gunn and PALY have a well regarded "brand name" with admissions folks. I am not sure to what extent the Newsweek type rankings affect this image, I will conjecture that it is very little, but instead is based on history with alumni of those high schools attending the colleges, the study of the curriculum and extra curricular experiences Palo Alto students present, and the impression candidate students make in their applications and in interviews.

Admissions people also state--and I believe it to be largely true--that there are numerous factors that go into evaluating individual students and figuring out what will go into making up the mix of a particular admitted class. Where a high school ranks on AP tests taken in evaluating an individual student likely does not even enter into consideration.

It may be that a student who gets a 4 or 5 on an AP exam may not need to take certain material again in college, but unless someone is in some sort of hurry to blow through college (for me, I would dealy love to go back, not get done early) I honestly don't understand how important such a score is toward a college student having a meaningful educational experience that leads to success thereafter.

It is great that Gunn and PALY are recognized in various ways for being the excellent public high schools that they are. Newsweek's recognition should be acknowledged appreciatively for being another data point that supports these schools' reputation. To take it much further, including comparing the two schools, or speculating about what the reasons are for the AP test count being what it is at either place, is placing way to much importance on this Newsweek analysis.

Like the college admissions process at some desirable colleges, what goes into these two places being as good as they are is much more complicated and subtle than this single Newsweek metric suggests.

And I am sure that this will be the topic of discussion at many a wine and cheese get together as the school year winds down.

the most important lesson to learn from this article? No teenager should talk to the press, no matter how smart he/she thinks he is. [Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Education achievement, at the high school level, at least, largely correlates with parental academic achivement and income. Take that for what it's worth. Highly-educated parents who have the money to (a) be home to be sure the kid does their work, and (b) can pay for tutors whether or not a tutor is "needed" make all the difference. A culture for learnign inthe home breeds kids who get good grades. Hopefully it doesn't go too far, as it then breeds kids who cheat to get good grades.

Something else to laugh about: adults reading what ONE kid says to a reporter to then criticize or praise the school the kid goes to. How silly.

AP classes are great because, generally, they stretch a kid's brain more than the non-AP class does. ANY benefit to your college education beyond that is laughable. Sure, there is some benefit to not having to take a certain class that might have 300 students in it. That's true. But most schools do not have 300-student classes. Just because that's how Cal's Calculus class is, doesn't mean that's how it is at other perfectly good universities/colleges. Take AP to stretch your brain. I hope the irony isn't missed: a Gunn student or parent talking about the $savings of not having to take that intro Match/English/Psych/Hostory class, at CAL!!! LOL - yeah, that Cal tuition is really gonna break the budget. (I apologize to the small % of Gunn families who do have real money issues.)

[Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.] Consider the REALITY in the world, like the suffering in Myanmar or China, and not the nonsense of the Newsweek poll.

Hello Sohill:
I am sorry to say that your contention is heavily flawed. "Maybe he will care to explain why School for the Talented and Gifted (dallas) is ranked #1." Well try and look at it this way Sherlock: it is a school for the TALENTED AND GIFTED. If a school only excepts those types of students, race is not a factor while intelligence is. [Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Sohill is of the older generation who grew up during the civil rights era when people of color had to fight for civil rights because there was inequality. Sohill is dreaming of days gone by.
It's nice to see how much more tolerant and open-minded the current Gunn High School students are of people of all colors.
It's true there are a lot of Asian students who study very hard. It is nice that a good number of Asian students are recognized for hard work.
[Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.] The younger generation is much more multi-cultural.

I can't even begin to describe how terrible this rating system is. US News & World Report is one thing. At least they use MULTIPLE CATEGORIES.

Would you pay attention to a restaurant guide that ranked dining spots purely based on the number of red wines they offer? No. So why the heck would listen to a high school ranking that has a single criteria. Moreover, that criteria is inherently flawed! Many top schools these days have been moving AWAY from the AP test. The school I went to accepted very few AP tests — and for those they did accept, you typically needed to get a 5. I knew I wasn't going to be a science major, so when the ENVS AP rolled around, I didn't take the test.

And gee...that would actually hurt my school's ranking in this formula. And that's because it's a terrible formula. Jon Meacham (that's the editor-in-chief of Newsweek, an oft-mentioned candidate to take stewardship of the Post in the coming months) should be downright ashamed.

Gunn and Paly are great schools, and you don't need some crappy magazine trying to sell copies to tell you that.

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Hello sophomore,

"I am sorry to say that your contention is heavily flawed. "Maybe he will care to explain why School for the Talented and Gifted (dallas) is ranked #1." Well try and look at it this way Sherlock: it is a school for the TALENTED AND GIFTED. If a school only excepts those types of students, race is not a factor while intelligence is."

This index (as flawed as i mentioned) EXCLUDES any school whose student body (more than 50%) is chosen by placement test. What the school calls itself is immaterial. Also, Palo Alto high school students are statistically already a in narrow percentile in many respects (low or high depending on what, low on poverty, high on financial aspects
for example). Did you mean the Dallas school excepts or accepts?
[Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.] The two Palo alto high schools have been exceptional since the first days of their existence, thanks to the faculty, staff and students who work hard. Please leave race out of this. It's not nice and its divisive.I do not see the world divided into races, no. Never did even when I was younger.
Don't forget that those who build our railroads weren't once even considered for citizienship because of being "dangerous and stupid". Now, they are the cause of Gunn's high scores?
There is something wrong with this kind of perception ....

sophomore,

you are right that the dallas school is a bit off the charts, but so is Gunn high. I just meant to say that it's the whole student body and teachers that make a it a very good school from the beginning. I am not surprised that some students push others a bit but I am aware the statement implied the effort was lead by asian students. All students have a say in the schools' success and I like team work mentioned better than a race based reference.

Main thing is it's a great school

Sohill, Narnia, check out the national tests: Web Link

API Scores - overall and then by race:

High:
Gunn: 899 (Asian: 939, White: 909)
Paly: 883 (Asian: 943, White: 894)

Middle:
Terman: 940 (Asian: 987, White: 955)
Jordan: 923 (Asian: 978, White: 945)
Stanford (Jane Lathrop): 907 (Asian: 979, White: 922)

Elementary (sample):
Hoover: 981 (Asian: 994, White: 974)
Addison: 948 (Asian: <not reported>, White: 969)
Duveneck: 946 (Asian: 987, White: 953)
Walter Hays: 936 (Asian: 974, White: 966)
Ohlone: 904 (Asian: 950, White: 916)

Still believe race isn't a factor?

There was a similar discussion some time ago I can't remember when and I think I have to say that my view of this matter changed little. I don't realy like the index ranking but that's another matter. I also don't like the term Asian. It's meaningless unless is geographical. That's another matter also.

"Still believe race isn't a factor?" Yes.
I think what we see in students' success (Challenge index formula) indicates that race isn't a factor. If it was schools with heavy percentages of a race/races would have very different results and that doesn't happen. For example, if race was a factor you would see that the ranking order would be strikingly race based . Many schools with a heavy asian presence are not as well ranked as some with a negligible number of asians . . What you see is that schools' ranking doesn't follow same skin color or racial characteristics. In other words a high ranking is obtained independently of the number of students of any race. So, race isn't a factor.
Now to Palo Alto. Might Gunn High be skewed in relation to other indexed schools? Yes, but the factor might parental education and income not race .The perception that Asians work like mad and sprint ahead of other is on one hand dangerous
( we all know what can come out of such perceptions) and on the other hand is very superficial. What about all the other students who excel and sprint academically too?
Where do they figure in your numbers? And why is race and not economic status or parental expectations or who is a professor's child - to mention a few aspects-not a factor in the analysis?
If the numbers reflected other factors you would see that a superficial look
at students' achievement (index rankings) by race is in fact meaningless. The factor we focus on is the one we are going to see represented. But that choice is cultural. That's what's called bias (not necessarily a bad thing, but must be acknowledged) .The ranking results bear that out.

Sohill,

"I also don't like the term Asian. It's meaningless unless is geographical." Er, actually it's a useful term, particularly in this context.

You set out to demolish points no one made. No one said Asian=smart=good schools. You invented that. Also please note that the kid in question never suggested the explanation lay in wealth, parental education, income or race.

Getting back to reality, a student suggested that the Asians at Gunn do well and foster academic competitiveness. Well, you need only scroll up to see hard data supporting that first point. Max was dead on, and you were wrong.

There is no way we can look at this by race alone. The asians here are well educated and it would make sense that asian parents would produce smart asian kids who would do well in school, the same as the white well educated parents would produce white smart kids.

I was recently in Europe and I came across many immigrants newly arrived from asia (mainly chinese) who were not necessarily well educated and were taking the service industry jobs which the locals did not want to do. These people were hardworking but not well educated and spoke the local language very poorly, just enough to do their jobs. It would follow that their kids may not be able perform up to the same standard in school as the locals. However, I have no data to support this, just observation. If you look at the type of parents we have in our schools here, it follows that their kids would be smart and capable, regardless of their race. It just so happens that we have well educated asian families, not poor working class families. Our white kids are mainly from well educated families, but not always so. Therefore, the asian kids are going to outperform the white kids percentage wise as some of the white kids are from more working class homes.

Resident, Sohill,

Those results are across the board at all Palo Alto Elementary/Middle/High Schools. If it was only at a few schools or only based on a small set of data but it's at every single school at every single level! I was surprised when I looked at these results. I started at Gunn/Paly based on this article then went down the list.

You can guess at other reasons but please provide some data on Palo Alto residents/schools to back up your guesses. Perhaps you can find out the average/median salary of Palo Alto residents based on race. But until you can show something to back up your guesses...

api scores, I am not guessing anything. As I said the national results do not indicate that race is a factor in this ranking index. The scores you mention are a range within certain margin of error and not at all indicative of anything except a range. So any number doesn't really mean that number exactly, if I remember correctly how it's done.. To Palo Alto specifically: are there any other groupings apart from race that group test scores? If not, that where the bias is. We do know by looking at the index ranking that race is not a factor. I have no reason to believe that Palo Alto doesn't fit neatly into the Bell Curve of "other factors". Rankings and PAUSD numbers are not a random survey- the factors have been chosen and highlighted for study. That's why they are of relative usefulness I think.

PAUSD chose to present data by race. Maybe they are abiding by state or federal guidelines, lots of schools do this, I don't know. The question is: if the students had been grouped in any other manner than race would any of the other factors present itself as relevant ( by opposition to choosing a factor and highlighting that factor) ? It has been done in other places, so we know that the relevant factor for school achievement is not race. You choose to highlight achievement according to race. That's your choice. But please don't say that statistics (we are talking about the ranking index remember?) bear that out. Neither do the numbers you present. PAUSD choose to group them that way.

My freshman's high school (a prominent independent school) doesn't do AP tests anymore.
Likewise, I don't believe that they should be that relevant. The Challenge index is tremendously flawed but because Gunn is excellent in all aspects they always have a high ranking whatever the methodology or lack of thereof.

api scores: You are wrong. Sorry.

a cross-section of Palo Alto schools is NOT a cross-section of "society." Palo Alto is a tremendously affluent community. You may understand that once you are out in the real world. ALL of Palo Alto iss affluent. ALL of Palo Alto is highly-educated.

Try comparing the Asian results in Palo Alto to those in West Oakland, where Asian WORKERS live - where BOTH parents work day AND night, and there's no money for tutors, and there's no one home to make sure Bily does his math homework - Asians who have less of a culture of education. It's the culture of education that matters, not race (or religion, etc.).

I'm not criticizing the folks in East Oakland. They work hard, and it's impossible for those families to give their kids the educational advantages that their ethnic counterparts who can afford to buy a house in Palo Alto can.

Asians, as a measured sub-group, perform better on the test. That's fine. To say they drive the "challenge" in the school - that's probably less fine, since it is stereotyping. I'm sure there are Asian slackers as well as Caucasian go-getters.

Who really cares what the ethnic background of the kids are? The competitive kids drive the competitiveness. Can we move on now?

I response to sohill, I would hardly compare Washington-Lee HS in Arlington, VA (adjacent to DC) to schools in inner-city Chicago and Philadelphia. The students that take the advanced classes in the Arlington's high schools are primarily white and upper-middle class. While the school system there has encouraged participation in AP classes among minorities with some success, Arlington's poorest high school, Wakefield lags far behind Washington-Lee and Yorktown in the rankings, which while socio-economically diverse, are both mostly white and upper-middle class.

I personally don't like the high school ranking criteria Newsweek uses, but it does help elevate schools in disadvantaged areas.

The criteria Time Magazine, Ladies Home Journal, et al used to rank high schools in the 1950s and 60s, were largely based on academic and athletic performance. The top high schools in those lists were primarily in wealthy suburbs or were magnet schools. New Trier High School (IL), Washington-Lee (VA), Bethesda Chevy Chase (MD), and the Bronx High School of Science were in the top ten year after year.

This was not the Newsweek ranking . It was the Challenge Index*. It's a different ranking system, from the Washington Post. I didn't compare any schools. I only said that if it were to be true that the Asians students group performs better (by some measure) then by the same measure the schools that are heavily Asian would perform better than the others. And we know that by the same measure applied to all schools that is not true.

*The Challenge Index by and large uses AP tests results as a measurement-it's simplistic in my view.
Me too:

again it's how you choose to do the grouping that gives you your measurement pattern so the "measurement " is biased ( I am not saying that's bad in many cases, only that we should recognize bias).

I'm afraid Palo Alto doesn't really have a representative population of anybody except the well off and educated. In other aspects the representation is skewed. In other words,
Palo Alto is not "normal".

So I am of a mind that race is off and mentioning it only highlights differences.
We should really care about not being divisive...

sorry Me To, I had copied something and pasted your name on the above post. I didn't mean to address you, in fact I was making a general point. Apologies.

Max Keller,

I was indeed too hard on you. In writing my point I behaved less than well, specially because
you didn't mean any meanness at all and you said it like you saw it. I disagree with you but I wasn't nice to you which I regret because I believe ( a teacher's belief too) that we should give our youth a little leeway and not much criticism. I went against my own principles. i was
little irritated with assertions like yours but I didn't measure the circumstances and impulsively jumped on your words. I feel pretty bad about this in what concerns you and
hope that my apology meets the case and that you can just say that on this occasion I was
an idiot ( notwithstanding my opinions) . I apologize.

"Try comparing the Asian results in Palo Alto to those in West Oakland, where Asian WORKERS live" What are you trying to say? It's still evident (statistically so) that Asians are bringing up the results. One thing we know is that at Gunn Asians do better academically.

"Asians, as a measured sub-group, perform better on the test. That's fine. To say they drive the "challenge" in the school - that's probably less fine, since it is stereotyping." It would be for you or me, because we'd be guessing, but when a kid who goes to the school reports his impression, it's no stereotype. He's just reporting what he's seen.

"I'm sure there are Asian slackers as well as Caucasian go-getters." Of course. What's your point?

"the "measurement " is biased" Naw. It measures what it measures. If divisiveness arises when facts are mentioned, it's not the fact that created the divisiveness. The divisiveness was there all along.

I am sorry that I am not able to explain better ( or in such short messages) a concept that kept many entertained.
It's not the measurement that's biased. It is the initial choice of grouping and patterning that introduces bias as well as the object to be measured.
For your information: academically, Asians do not in fact perform better than other groups.

The only group that performs better all over the world are those of affluent and educated families - has nothing to do with being asian or aleutian.

True story:

I have a child in 6th grade at JLS. My child has a very good friend who is Asian, with both parents from China. When the last report card came home, the Asian friend had all As and one B. Because the Asian friend had one B on said report card, the parents of the child took away all privileges and grounded their child indefinitely (presumably until the next report card comes home with all As).

I believe one reason why Asians students perform so highly is that many Asian parents are as hard driving as the ones I just mentioned. Maybe it is effective. Do I want that for my child? No way. I'd rather have a balanced, happy child than have a child who's punished for having one B.

Here's a very interesting FAQ piece by Jay Matthews, who's responsible for the Newsweek rankings. He's candid about the flaws of the rankings and respectful of his critics, (I know from personal correspondence with him as well). He makes important points about how the rankings have changed from year to year, and relates how other districts tried to follow the P.A. lead by withholding information.

Web Link

Motivation

I have heard stories like yours before from my kids. I have also seen how this type of "punishment" has sent messages which I don't like. When the best player on the sports team or the lead in the school play, or a planned birthday party gets canceled (all examples) because of a poor grade, it hurts not only the child but the peer group as a whole. I like to teach my kids that peer responsibility is a quality they should have. I teach them that if they are on a sports team, then they have a loyalty and responsibilty to that team. Keeping them away from that team punishes the whole team and also makes that kid seem unreliable in the future.

There are often more important lessons to teach our kids than the value of getting an A.

Motivation,

I have a similar story for my child. I am Asian; my child got all A's but only one B on her report card. I took away all privileges and grounded her indefinitely. This is the same story your kid told you about, right? Maybe. But what's the true story behind yours?
I grounded my daughter not because of the B, but because she lied to me about something else, and it happens that the lies got discovered at the time the report card was received. My point is hearsay is just a hearsay and sometimes cultural difference make people mis-understand each other.

I actually agree with Sohill's last comment. Unfortunately the state and thus district provide student data by racial breakdown, which has limited use but works its way into our lingo and thinking. There are many cultural and socio-economic factors beyond race that contribute to student success.

Last time I reviewed available data, the students whose parents had the highest educational level did the best - and Asian parents of Hoover students had the highest ed level in the district - higher, surprisingly, than Nixon (Stanford). At the time, Hoover was our top rated school. I don't know if this is still true. Also, not every child of a PhD will follow in their parents' ed footprints, but education is probably supported within the family.

Something else to consider is the growing number of PAUSD parents who were not schooled in US public schools - Asian and non-Asian. They often have a different frame of reference and expectations for their students. I've often heard that they do not feel our curriculum is challenging enough (especially math and science) which is why they supplement - especially if they intend to return to their home country at some point. It is their choice and family value to do so.

helloo?:

It's nice to hear that you find the cost of college trivial. Congratulations you elitism almost went unnoticed.

Ultimately despite colleges' rhetoric about not maintaining quotas is useless. Most of them claim to be diverse, and geogrpahically well represented. This means a student who IS AP caliber but doesn't take the class is left at a disadvantage. Recognize that AP classes are not substitutes for arts or electives, but replace the core classes. Taking an ap demonstrates competency at a college level; something colleges do actually care about.

The AP test, however, is irrelevant. But, many teachers do require it. The advantage is not so much money in the bank, but being excused from foreign language requirements and skipping introductory classes that are generally very large and impersonal. APs prepare students for college, and demonstrate this competency for college. Why not learn the fundamentals earlier than later?

Oh and Paly community: who is the keynote commencement speaker going to be for you guys?

We have MC Hammer, once again evidence that you can't touch this.

Hi all, I just spoke with Max Keeler, who felt the context of his quote inaccurately implied he was complaining about hard-working students. He appreciates the challenge, he said. I added a clarification. Arden

Arden Pennell,

please let Max know of my apology

True story:

Don't worry, it's not your daughter's story I heard. Actually, it happened to my son's friend, another boy.

I have every reason to believe that what my son told me about his friend is absolutely true. The boy's own mother had mentioned directly to me once before that she was grounding her son because he had gotten a grade that was not good enough for his parents at his Chinese school...

One thing, which I forgot until I noticed a comment in another thread--Gunn's rank has dropped and Paly's has risen. If both schools are seeing an increase in Asian populations (and both are), why isn't that increase reflected in upward movement in the rankings for both schools?

Wasn't Gunn 59 or so a few years back?

I really disagree that Palo Alto schools should participate. The number of AP tests that students take as nothing to do with the quality of the school. You can't associate a number as simple as the number of AP tests students take with the school's overall quality. That's just ridiculous.

All Newsweek is doing is promoting College Board’s *expensive* AP tests (hmm, I wonder why). By encouraging participation in these rankings, that’s what we’re doing too. Is that really the message we want to send across? There are a lot of other ways to help out struggling schools. Telling them that their students should be spending hundreds of dollars on AP tests is not one of them. I wish improving a school were as simple as encouraging kids to take AP tests, but it’s not.

Just another example of how the ranking system is flawed: The number one school, BASIS Charter School not only requires but also PAYS for students to take at least 6 AP exams in order to graduate. No wonder they sit atop the rankings!

"One thing, which I forgot until I noticed a comment in another thread--Gunn's rank has dropped and Paly's has risen. If both schools are seeing an increase in Asian populations (and both are), why isn't that increase reflected in upward movement in the rankings for both schools?"

If you look at the score, Gunn's is still rising. The decline in the rankings is due to the fact that many other schools are actively pushing AP tests to rise in the rankings.

Fun,

Thanks for the info. So Paly is rising faster than Gunn and actually climbing the ranks?

I think Paly student makes a good point though--the tests are expensive if you take enough of them--so a school that has them as a graduation requirement *and* pays for the tests is going to have an edge. I think I like the college-readiness rating better--particularly as the colleges and universities have become more dubious about the merits of AP classes.

"Thanks for the info. So Paly is rising faster than Gunn and actually climbing the ranks?"

Not necessarily.

Here are Gunn's scores:
2003 - 2.791
2005 - 3.052
2006 - 3.407
2008 - 3.813

And Paly's:
2003 - 1.892
2005 - 1.872
2006 - 2.005
2008 - 2.356

You can interpret however you want.

Well, my serious guess would be that the competition tightens at the top--kids can take only so many APs.

Fun ,

I suppose the test scores you provided are the average test scores. Those are internal test scores of meaningless comparison, not a more objective SAT's or AP's. Top colleges
( I speak as professor's wife) have a ranking system to "objectivize" those. A grade in one school is not worth the same in another and a grade obtained with a certain teacher is worth differently than a grade obtained in another school or another teacher for the same class.
The present rankings , US news or the one we were discussing, the Challenge index are a little more objective but the challenge is too unsophisticated to be of a lot of value. The US new is better because enters more factors into consideration.
Palo alto high school is ranked #85 on the 100 best schools (us news). Gunn is ranked
#56. Not really a world of difference between them . So, why insist on this divisiveness?

If fact both schools should be celebrating together: they are much more alike than different in achievement.

"I suppose the test scores you provided are the average test scores. "

No, those are the numbers that Newsweek used for their ranking (total number of AP tests taken divided by number of graduating seniors). Again, interpret them however you want.

Fun,

The newsweek ranking IS the challenge index with uses an extremely simplistic and unsophisticated formula. Their methodology is very weak. Would you explain that a much more sophisticated methodology produces a different ranking (the US News) : Gunn high in #56 place and Play high in #86 (which I think is about right )?
Asit has been said many schools do not have AP tests for every subject and many are abandoning it altogether. It means not much for a school to do AP tests and it means not much for a student to have done it. The simplification of this particular ranking methodology is so naive that any narrowly educated human can come up with it or indeed make the most of it specially if they don't understand statistical analysis.

There's a lot of talk regarding asians and "driving factors." That's just ridiculous. It isn't about whats driving the high scores up, but rather, what's keeping them down. I will be talking only about Paly and Gunn High Schools.

Let's jump right into this.

2007 data pulled from California Department of Education.
API Scores:

# of students included in the 2007 api: 1076
Paly's api: 883

(659 students)white api: 894
(248 students)asian api: 943

avg of the two: 918.5
Overall api: 883
(difference of 35.5 points)

# of students included in the 2007 api: 1317
Gunn's api: 899

(708 students)white api: 909
(450 students)asian api: 939

avg of the two: 924
Overall api: 899
(difference of 25 points)

Being that Paly's asian api is higher than Gunn's asian api, the number of asians and api being mismatched we can rule out the possibility that the number of asians correlate to higher scores.
At the same time, Paly's and Gunn's white api and white segmet being similar and the differences between the segments and scores being statistically insignificant, we can discount the number of whites having a significant affect on overall mean api even though the white
segment scores lower than the asian segment in these two schools. Furthermore, even though the white segment is roughly 2x that of the asian, the white segment scored lower than that of the asian. If, We were to use this this data to make a correlation (we wouldn't, this sample alone doesn't have enough data to support any correlation), we could conjecture that smaller, more concentrated segments have higher scores. However, that is NOT the case.

White and asian segments scored higher than the '07 base api. The other 5 ethnic/racial segments (as a whole on average) had to score significantly lower than either whites or asians to get the overall api for each respective school. On top of which, Paly's 5 other racial segments had to score lower than Gunn's 5 other racial segments to bring down Paly's overall mean api when compared with Paly's white and asian segment's average versus Gunn's overall mean compared to Gunn's white and asian segment's average.

One more time(just in case you missed my point): The 5 other segments (as a whole on average) had to score significantly lower than either whites or asians to get the overall api for each respective school.

By the way, does anybody recall the lawsuit filed in '76 and settled in '86 whereby PAUSD must accept at most 166 of San Mateo's students each year? O yes, it was called "The Tinsley Case."

So ask yourself WHO is and WHY are people NOT taking advantage of the fantastic resources that Palo Alto and PAUSD and especially Palo Alto's taxpayers provide.

Scooter,

Aren't you giving equal weight to the Cauc. and Asian segments when doing your average? Since the Cauc. groups are considerably larger than the Asian groups, shouldn't the average be adjusted downward accordingly?

That said, the scores would indicate that the 169 kids who don't fit into the two main food groups at Paly aren't doing well at all. And there's your achievement gap. I suspect there's also a segment of Caucasian kids who also fit into that group.

One of the things I found interesting about the latest APIs is that with the neighborhood schools, while Asian kids had a higher API average than their Caucasian classmates--except at Nixon--the neighborhood schools with the highest overall API was also one of the whitest--Addison. The north cluster has consistently outperformed most of the other schools (Nixon and Hoover) being the exceptions while being among the less diverse.

At the elementary level, I think it's not about culture, I think it's about education levels and money. Addison has a big chunk of Crescent Park. The high scores of the Asian group reflects, in part, a relatively narrower and more affluent socio-economic status. Palo Alto had good schools when it had a small percentage of Asian students. In other words, Asian kids didn't create our high-scoring schools, more like Asian families came here for the good schools and then have worked to reinforce that.

OK, I remember before it was politically correct to call us Asians. I graduated from Paly in the early 80s and was one of the few Asians. First, racism is never going to end, so give it up--you are wasting your breath. Fortunately, in Palo Alto, I never felt racism.

If you compare the Asian kids who have parents who are immigrants to the Asians who are third and fourth generation, you will find in general that the hardest-working students are the ones with the immigrant parents because it is in our culture. Education is top priority for Asians. Why are there more Asians at Gunn? They see the API scores are higher so they go to Gunn. I know this to be true because I talk to immigrant parents. It's pure fact. The parents stress grades and train their kids to go home and hit the books. Exercise? No way. Studying is more important. Great America? Forget it, there's no learning there. Facts from real-life conversations. Yes, there are immigrant parents who are more moderate and do let their kids play, but in general, high grades is part of the Asian culture. Asians are extremely hard working people. I understand the resentment (and I have some myself because how can our kids compete with kids who do nothing but study?). But it is what it is. There have been times when I have thought to move elsewhere where academic competition isn't so stiff. But it is so great to live in Palo Alto.

Bless you Oriental for a breath of refreshing air.

You nailed it.

Oriental,

Yikes, gotta say, it's actually kind of hard to write the term--it's been a longggg time. But I think you describe the breakdown well--a lot of this is about immigrant drive and energy. Historically, you see it in other immigrant groups as well--I think people don't always see it for what it is because until pretty recently Palo Alto was pretty homogenuous and suburban--but the Bay Area, while diverse for a long time, is now radically so. So there's a lot of different cultural expectations.

To OhlonePar,

I gave weight to racial segments as wholes as did the API. As to WHY they did, I'm not sure. It does NOT make sense to break down averages by racial segments and then calculate those averages as wholes. But, the numbers are broken down that way. I just analyzed the data in the fashion it was displayed.

If I had given weight to racial segments as # of students represented, then my #'s would have been significantly MORE reinforced. Essentially less than half the student population in both schools would be responsible for bringing down the entire average of both schools.

I reject the argument of socio-economic status. Nobody has shown empirical data suggesting anything of the sort. Once somebody does, we'll add the weight of that into the discussion. Just because Palo Alto house prices are abnormally high, and that people live in Palo Alto, doesn't mean that they can actually afford to live in Palo Alto. Lot's of parents fake their addresses. Why, I have two korean children living in my house that I've never seen or met before. But their mail comes here.

Everybody is still focused on why the number are HIGH. I'm asking why the numbers are DOWN. It nice that we're up on the list, but once you reach the #1 spot on this list; you realize that it's only the bottom of another.

As to "orientals" never feeling racism in Palo Alto...Maybe females never did. Painting their faces white and flirting with the boys. Everything was peachy keen, I'm sure. Let's brush the racism issue under the carpet for now and believe Oriental's lies. Oops I meant "point of view." If I had to guess, Oriental is female, Chinese maybe Japanese...not any 2nd gen Koreans or Vietnamese around at that time, 2nd generation, married a White. Had white babies. Couldn't speak her ethnic language to save her life. Integrated very nicely.

Nope, never any racism in Palo Alto, especially in the 80's. No, we minorities, we had it real good in the 80's. I'm not angry at all, nope, nope. Never any racism...On that last note, what ever she's been drinking, I'll have two. Thanks.

Scooter,

I've found that the group of people I've the most in common with in terms of where and how I grew up are Japanese-Americans. Like me, they tend to be locals with their families on the West Coast for a few generations. We tend to share points-of-reference. There is very little immigration from Japan now. With Japanese-Americans, the emphasis really is on "American"--their families have been here for five and six generations. So, if "Oriental" comes from a family that's been in California for generations, he or she probably did fit in in ways that might seem hard to believe to kids of more recent immigrants. No need for white face--we like the tan thing here even with the pale people.

And, yeah, a lot of these fifth- and sixth-generation Americans don't speak their ancestral language. I don't speak the language of many of my ancestors either. Why would I? I don't live in Europe.

And yeah there are fourth-, fifth- and sixth-generation Chinese-Americans, too. Very little connection to China for decades with many of these families. So while there's long been a Chinese culture in the Bay Area, it wasn't connected to China, per se.

In my generation, pretty much everyone I know in this kind of American-Asian category has married outside their ethnic group. And recent immigrants from Asia seem foreign to them; I feel the same way about European immigrants.

In other words, I can see how you might have experienced racism while someone else in Oriental's position might not have.

All I have to say is WHO CARES! in about 2 years the white race Will be the Minority!!!!