Is it not worth the money to underground the trains?

Does putting the train under ground address teen suicide?

We need a bike/pedestrian bridge over the tracks in south Palo Alto and then make it illegal for people to walk across.

Unfortunately, this is no longer news. My own teens shrugged this off as no surprise and weren't interested.

Put all the trains up in the air on a trestle above Palo Alto.

Maybe it's time to start asking - is this actually newsworthy? Would you launch a newspaper that only reported stories such as this? Where do you draw the line?

What we need to do is find the cause of all these suicides and address the problem

My high school kids were affected this morning, without knowing who it was, so it is still news. I'm wondering if we are helping children and teens struggling with mental illness by telling them to take medication to blend in. Does that keep their illness in control, or simply hide it so that others don't realize that they need help?

I do not believe the intent of this news posting is to generate advertising money. What community do you know that has so many young students driven to suicide? There is indeed a serious underlying problem in our community / school system.

Putting the train in the air, under ground, or making a bike path/walkway above the tracks is NOT going to solve the problem!!!
These kids are committing suicide...not accidently getting hit because they are walking across the tracks!!
If we prevent them from doing what they are going to do there -- they will find another place.

Lets work on SOLVING THE PROBLEM first as to WHY these poor kids are committing suicide! What is troubling them so much that they feel this is the only way out?
Parents? School? Bullies? Depression?

I think until anything else is released people should try and just live there lives maybe doing some really nice things to forget, and worry when news actually arrives. Its important to realize at this point that nothing said or done on this or any forum can help what happened. We need to except that suicide is a life challenge and deal with the people in trouble not the train. You cant put all the blame on the train because the person took there life that way (if they did its not clear yet). Basically what Im trying to say Is I know how difficult this time can be but its how we get through it through our friends and relatives or even by ourselves that matters not the building of a new train.

Was it a kid?

Have this community done anything to prevent this from happening?! Caltrain has successfully diverted public attention by raising the horn volume! On the other hand, what have we done? Cops around track for a couple days? Blaming the victims? Where are the leaders of our city? Do you see our kids get killed! Do something, get involved!

according to the sf chronicle it was a teenage boy.

Web Link

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Palo Alto is not the only place where people commit suicide. We only learn of these unfortunate events because people are killing themselves in public; on train tracks that run directly through the middle of town. Obviously this issue should be addressed, but if these events didn't involve Caltrain then no one would even know about them. I don't think there is a specific reason why kids are committing suicide, if we knew that then there wouldn't be an issue. It's definitely a case by case problem; the schools are not solely responsible for a child's well-being, parents have to take an active role and understand how their child is feeling. And newspapers have the right to publish whatever they want; I am glad that the Palo Alto Weekly is doing its job of reporting what is happening in our town, if these events happened and weren't reported by the media then that would be an issue...

Can you really prevent it from happening?

As a parent of two kids at Gunn I can say that there's way too much pressure on these kids - way too high expectations. Do you know why Gunn/Paly had such an astronomical number of National Merit Scholars this year? Well, these kids are experiencing intense peer pressure to the point where the majority are willing to cheat with pharmaceuticals. Yes, drugs are a problem in Palo Alto, but not the kinds you think. Also, homecoming this past week was shockingly competitive between classes. Really over the line stuff like cheating and vandalizing other classes' floats.

To Parent:
I disagree with your post. I don't think that those comments were in anyway a comment on his/her children's values or morals. The post began with the word "unfortunately," clearly demonstrating his/her reaction to the fact that this type of event is no longer a surprise. And be honest, is it very surprising that this happened again? It's not that his/her children wouldn't sympathize with the family, but what is apparent is that this is no longer a rare occurrence. Just like homicides in places like New Orleans and Detroit; it's not that people don't sympathize with a victim's family, it's just that homicides happen so often that people are no longer in shock.

Palo Alto will always be a competitive, mean spirited community (vandalizing other classes' floats..... come on now) as long as parents push their children to take seven AP's, get into Harvard, and glorify them. What more can I say???

Ryan,
But to those of us in grief those statements are shocking and inappropraite in a public forum-- yes-- as a member of the Gunn community I am still shocked that a precious life would be taken in such a horrible way. And, my students are also shocked and still afraid to find out who it was. So, I stand by my comments. A young life was taken and the post says that the reaction in her household was that there was none! Have compassion for the rest of the community. OK-- it did not happen at your school--but it happened in your community.

The problem here is not Caltrain. The trains are a target of opportunity for kids who see suicide as a plausible alternative to the pressures of school, family and society.

The answer will not be to fix Caltrain. The answer will be to fix the pressure cooker we place our kids in. Growing up is really hard... especially in Palo Alto where the community revels in placing nearly unattainable expectations on our kids.

Perhaps we should spend more time listening, playing and accepting our kids for who they are...and not the mythical straight "A" earning, Olympic athlete and socially popular stars we dream they will be.

Yes, please show some compassion. Condolences to the poor family. May the child rest in peace.

I am defending my post.

We are a JLS/Paly family. We know a couple of past suicides both from the ones this year and the ones from a few years ago at Paly.

My point is that yes I am sad, yes I grieve for the families and yes I am scared. But, my kids now have the attitude that suicide is "so what". They were interested to know if the person has been named and it may make a difference if they do know him, but otherwise they just look on it as something that happens. That is why I use the word unfortunately. They are getting numbed to the concept of death. They do not see it as something relevant to them. They are more interested in whether it will rain again today than this suicide?

I do not think this is a good thing. I am not sure how I want them to behave to this news, but being immune to it is not what I expected or what I want.

I am not proud of their behavior, but I am worried.

Suicide is a direct consequence of an illness called depression. Depression is diagnosable and treatable, but only if the person who is ill knows what to look for and is willing to ask for help.

Unfortunatley, many people in our society continue to believe that you can just "snap out of it" or "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" but as one who has been there, who has fle the pain of depression and considered suicide as a relief from the pain, I can tell you that this is not a question of will power.

A depressed person's brain is just wired a bit differently than a non-depressed person's. Depression is a chronic illness, like diabetes or arthritis. Please read up on the symptoms, talk to your children and friends about them, encourage them to seek help and to stay on their medications.

I can testify that I am alive today because of antidepressants.

My condolences to the family and friends and members of the community. Another sweet young life full of potential has been lost due to this incidious illness.

I am so sorry to hear this. My heart goes out to this child's family.

the stress of teens are very common in the high school. My kids stay at Fremont Mission High. They don't want to move to Palo Alto, not because of the stress of Gunn Hgih. In fact, Mission is more tough than Gunn High. The issue is " Cal Train ". The speed of cal train is very fast. The warnning light is very short. Last week, I drove my SUV crossing that area. When the traffic light turn "green " ,I just started to go. Then the rail road " Red light " signal came out immediately. I suddenly stopped my car. I found my car already stayed in the middle of the road. If I fowrard my car, there is no space in front of the trail. Hopefully, the traffic was not so many. The crossing cars just let me stop there. I've lived in Fremont about 15 years; there also are train passed thru. However, their design is much better than Palo Alto's. IF the train comes, the traffic light can turn red for both sides, then " blinking " for both sides. So, the driver knows they needs to do " four way stop "rules. So, eveyone are very cauious to pass thru the trail. Moreover, the speed of cal train is 10 times faster than the train in Fremont. I really feel the cal train system need to improve itself. Not only for these teens.

I woke up to this news from a call from a friend, I immediately came to Paloaltononline to look for facts. I wake up to the astronomically cold callus words of a few people questioning the newsworthiness of this.

Our children are in emotional torture. That is not news? Get out of my town you cold harded creeps!

What future do the kids see? What comfort is there and where does a child go to express that ... and to express it in complete confidentiality so peers do no ridicule him/her? That is part of peer pressure that you just have to deal with it.
There are freaking filthy rich families here and there are some that are here by inheritance and just scraping by to pay taxes and insurance on our homes to keep our kids in these schools. There are haves and have nots in this town.

I do not pretend to understand the root cause of these tragedies but my god, people wake the f*** up and yes this is the most newsworthy of all stories when so many of our children in our town see no way out. No way out of Palo Alto, not no way out of a poor city with high unemployment, rusted everything, nothing to do, nowhere to go.

Yet, part of me is not surprised by the reaction of some kids. Those kids will not romanticise the event or contemplate it themselves. They've been through it too much and know the torturous grief of the family and friends left behind and they are not having it.
Suicide is selfish. It does not respect the others around you and yet maybe that is the final statement. No way out,no hope,no safety net.Too young to understand how many resources really are available.
This is so terribly sad, and my heart and deepest condolences go out to this child's family and close friends.

The problem is not the train. The problem is not the schools. The problem is depression. I am starting to feel jaded over all of this, never thought that would happen. ENOUGH! You kids need to seek help. You are breaking your parents, families, and friends hearts.

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We the community and Gunn are to busy making sure that our students score well on everything so our houses go up in value and we make more money when we sell them. Now we can't celebrate that some students at Gunn score so well. I am wonder if this student was one of those who score well.
It is time to get out of denial and approach the problem our Gunn students are dying and instead of forming a group of parents to approach the problem, we also said let's not even feel anything. At least that is what I get about the mother who said that this is no news for my kids. We are so desensitized to pain. However we do react so happily when it is published that Gunn students score well. There was one mother who said in this forum something like "Great my house will go up in value"
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Rest in peace Gunn student, who was probably classmate with my kids. Sorry, we as community of Gunn and fail the students again.

According to the sf chronicle and the palo alto online it was a teenage boy.
I am sad to hear this my prayers go out to the boy's families. May you rest in peace.

Yes, of course depression is the at the root, but there are serious problems with the school and parents. One example: many classes are overcrowded (AP French is 10 kids above the limit - an advanced foreign language conversation class with 34 students!) Scheduling/registrar/counseling departments are overburdened and unhelpful. Even worse, most kids are unable to get the classes they want because of filling up. Every single year, both of my kids have had this happen. Hearing from other parents, this situation is typical. Now imagine a kid being pressured to excel from his/her parents yet the kid can't get into an in-demand class. Most elite colleges do expect these kids to have taken these classes - yet they are frequently unable due to circumstances beyond their control. Most of the teachers are great. My biggest complaints are with guidance/administration and with some parents who push too far. Instead of building new art buildings/gyms/pools/hiring grief consultants, the school district needs to support these kids by improving the staff/student ratio and also by hopefully giving more personalized attention - hard to do when you're budget-strapped and overcrowded. Also, why are these kids being breathalyzed when they enter and exit dances? Let's stop pretending to keep them safe and let's instead attend to their real needs and concerns.

I think that children, young people, do not know how to process such a sad thing as 4 of their classmates ending their lives, and one attempting the same. Perhaps they shut down and cease to react, but they ARE feeling something, they just don't have the emotional skills to express it.
There is a LOT of pressure on kids at Gunn, I have two there. And the councilors are so busy with senior conferences that they literally said that we should not call or email them, unless the student is having a serious emotional problem. They are good people, but the system is not set up for them to be able to offer any real support.
My feeling is that the academically excellent students get a lot of rewards, and attention, because they make the school look good. I think the middle of the road student, that is still maturing and finding themselves, or has learning challenges - feels like they are valued less.
My heart goes out to all children who are struggling to make their way in the world. I hope that in some way, some day, myself or my children can help them find peace and joy in the world. For a few of our precious children, it is too late, and that is heartbreaking.

Gunn is not the only competitive school. Paly is not far off. And then you have Mission San Jose. Competition is a good thing. It builds character. LIfe is hard. We need to teach our kids how to deal with the stress and competition; not take it away. Taking it away is not teaching them how to live. It's babying them - and how do we expect them to deal with far bigger problems and issues in the future?

As to why these kids are driven to suicide, no one really knows what they were thinking or feeling at that time. So let's not assume anything and put the blame on anything or anyone - like the schools. They're doing the best that they can.

My condolences to the family of this young man. We don't know that he went to Gunn, so please don't jump to conclusions yet.

We need to ask the STUDENTS (not just their parents, the admin, the mental health professionals) what will help them. While suicide is often caused by depression, what can we do as a community to stop pushing these kids over the edge? I personally think that Gunn is doing what it can with the resources they have. The competitive nature of both our high schools is ridiculous. And we know at both high schools there are teachers who are part of the problem, not the solution.

The "stigma" of depression is not the only problem with getting our students help. Have you tried to find a therapist for a child/teenager? They have months long waiting lists and closed practices. Have you checked to see if your health care plan (should you have one) covers mental health issues. If not, can you afford a couple hundred dollars per session for your child.

We have emergency resources in place, but no long term solutions.

We can provide just as high quality of an education without stressing our students so much by using some common sense.

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Some of our students are getting depressed as early as in Elementary school. Mine have been bullied mentally and physically by classmates, and the school just pretends to be doing a terrific job. They have been also being mentally abused by teachers, but there is nothing it can be done because they have been working too long for the district and when you ask them to move them to another class, or school the administrators do not agree because they do not want to accept that there is a problem. Instead they protect the teachers, even when there is clear evidence of mental abuse. How can this young people grow up to be healthy students? Of course tehy do not, and the depressions just gets worst and worst, until they cannot handle it anymore. Imagine being told by your teacher that if you are not quiet she is going to poke your eyeballs until they came out, or that you look like a girl when you are a boy, or to go to your class only to find out that you high school teacher took you off the least because you are not doing well in her class? Our kids go through a lot, but they do not tell us about it most of the times, because we have taught them to suck it up.
Shame on all of us, the city the schools and the parents. Here we have the results. Students rather die and keep going through, the road to success is to rough and some people make it worst.
There is a board meeting tonight, perhaps is time to knock at the door of the district and asked them to stop making the schools so butiful for our students. What good are the beautiful schools if our kids will not be able to enjoy them from the cold grave?
I have receive so many e-mails from the district to let me know about meetings related to the school renovations, but I have receive none about a meeting that they put together to addressed the suicidals. Have you?
I think the school is in denial, and they do not want to published this sad news because they will loose money, the parents might get mad and not want to vote for the parcel tax again. Just my thoughts.

i am a gunn alumni. i heard of this news by seeing my classmates' facebok updates. this is really sad and depressing for me. this problem needs to get fixed asap!

Since when did it become popular for teens to throw themselves in front of trains? Is there another root that can be identified?

I attended a school that was extremely overcrowded. My family was incredibly poor. We were migrant workers who immigrated to the United States for the sake of education. We endured poverty and racism as we traveled throughout states like Michigan, Wisconsin and California. At one point during our migrant experience, my parents and nine siblings lived in a travel trailer. We began working before the sun rose until after it set and bathed outside using a water hose behind blankets on a clothes line.

Yet, as bad as we might have had it, we never thought that things were so bad as to end our lives. We realized that there was always a "light at the end of the tunnel." We embraced a strong faith and endeavored as a family unit toward the completion of our public educations. As a result, each of my siblings has graduated from college with at least a bachelor's degree (with the exception of the two youngest who are just currently attending school at Texas and Stanford).

I just think that there is something wrong in our community when teenagers who are blessed with so much in life still choose to end their lives. Yes, I understand that depression can be an illness. Yet, most treatments include an attempt to teach such individuals to notice the good things in life...the limitless, positive possibilities...and see the glass as "half-full" (instead of lamenting that it might forever be "half-empty" or worse). This should be the best years of life for these blessed teenagers.

Perhaps the schools can relay this message? Life is a great adventure that will be filled with many great things. Life is worth living just to find out what is going to happen! Besides, each person's life is a book...a novel...where we are the author. It will be filled with a finite number of chapters. Those chapters will be filled with elements of drama, comedy, suspense, romance, heartbreak, success, tragedy, sorry, happineess and, of course, mystery. Most importantly, we need to realize that the last chapter and page have not been written yet. As the "authors" of our own life stories, it is up to us to create a fantastic end to the story of our life.

We should tell our children to endeavor to create a masterpiece and only end their life "book" on a good note!

My heart aches for those loved ones who are affected by these deaths. Additionally, my heart breaks for those teenagers who unwittingly think that life is so terrible that it should be ended prematurely.

I get so tired of people attributing depression to mental illness. Kids can be driven to depression through environmental factors. Too much pressure in school and no fun or relaxing can surely depress a teenager who is dealing with hormones and growing up issues, physical changes such as growing taller and needing more sleep. They are not adults yet. Why do we want them to perform as adults?

I also think that we should not always assume a suicide is due to school pressure. Mine was an abusive family. But the issue of school pressure should be addressed.

Kron 4 news just news just said that he was 16 years old, so probably a sophmore.

This is a message to all the people who have the urge to jump on others for either having, or seeming to have different morals:

Get off your pedestal. You are not perfect, so stop looking down on others because they don't share your morals, or don't seem to share your morals. It's people like you that make me very glad that I got the **** out of Palo Alto for college. God knows that I am not perfect, but it's disrespectful and downright ridiculous to antagonize other people due to a post on a message board.

As a former student at Gunn, I can say that it isn't only a Gunn problem. The fact that within the student body, it is strange NOT to take an AP class says a lot about the schools. One of the problems, in my opinion, is that kids don't know how to deal with stress - and they don't want to go to others to help them, because asking for help is a sign of weakness, which in high school you can't show. There's nothing that anyone can do unless the student helps themselves first.

I don't know what high school is now, but 10 years ago, Palo Alto high schools WERE competitive, but they weren't mean spirited- there was community despite the cliques. I'm sorry this is happening, and here are my two cents- It sucks to be in a recession, because it's the nation-wide stress about our futures, not to mention the economical and emotional impact it has on our families that possibly leads our youth to believe they can't achieve the success necessary to make it. Gunn, I'm so sorry for your loss, and I pray your students have strength to endure the tough times ahead.

We can't keep trying to peg this on the fact that Gunn's students are achievers. What would you have the administration do--abolish APs and make high school all about basket-weaving? Come on, now. Let's be real. Encouraging open communication between parents and their children is a good first step, but asking schools to become non-competitive cake-walks is a terrible idea.

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It's horrible that anyone would get to such a point in their life that they feel completely helpless and completely hopeless. It is especially awful that someone at such a young age would not be able to see any future in his or her life.

But people do get to this point. From what others here have written, who have children in these schools, it sounds like this is just a symptom of a bigger problem. These children talk to each other and they know who is on the verge of doing this. But you have to get them to trust you and to convince them that talking to you is not betraying their friends, but saving them.

Reminds me of the old show 21 Jump Street where adults who looked like teens worked in the schools to help prevent/solve crimes and situations like this. Perhaps doing something like that would be the beginning of a solution.

My heart goes out to the family of this young man and also to the person who was driving the train when it hit him. That person will have to live with this the rest of his/her life and will always question if there was a way to prevent it.

I have been living in Palo Alto for my whole life. Currently I am out for college and out of Gunn now. Being in Southern California had me thinking about the suicides so I often checked making sure it was not again a fellow Palo Altan that has made this huge mistake.

A few parents are saying underground trains which I think is actually a bad idea. The community should have some kind of neighborhood watch at the rail road tracks or some kind of bright light at the intersection....ever notice how the dark spots at the intersections are the ones being targeted? Why is it that there are no suicides at E Charleston and El Camino? Because that area is lighted!! A reasonable and affordable experimental job that just might work.

In addition to depression, suicide happens when someone might be impulsive, having an intense, overwhelming day or series of day, and the tracks happen to be there at that time. A solution has been modeled for individuals in a particular state of emotion and mind. It's not just depression. It is a very sad mistake.

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God rest this person's soul and peace be with his/her family.

I honestly believe one of the bigger, societal problems is that the kids do not have an opportunity to develop social skills.

By that I mean eyeball-to-eyeball, face-to-face contact where they can learn how to read each others gestures, emotions, how to read/interpret a look, a glance, a flirtation, how to feel nervous and conquer that. All of those are very, very hard to accomplish electronically, which is where a lot of these kids excel. I think they need more forums (fora?) where they can come together--anonymously perhaps--and share feelings, learn how to communicate, defend their viewpoints, etc.

In addition to their lack of opportunities to have FUN socialization, is the fact that they are being overmonitored at their dances (breathalyzer every time in and out AND going to the bathroom?), hello... Some kids say it forces them to do harder drugs that can come in under the radar....

Palo Alto teens, what do you think?

There are hundreds of high pressure schools around the world filled with overstressed students spurred on by high achieving overbearing parents, this is not unusual. There are also millions of high school students all over the world suffering from depression, this is unfortunate but also not unusual.

The problem is that Gunn has been infected with an insidious meme ("An idea or practice that is transmitted from mind to another through speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomena" Web Link This meme suggests to depressed students that death by train is romantic and it is reinforced by the load horns and the impressive sight of the train roaring down the tracks that many students cross on their way to school.

Getting rid of depression at Gunn would be great but it seems to be an impossible task. Many students at Gunn are already under care and are being medicated but unfortunately we just aren't smart enough to fix this problem. However there are two approaches that might help: We can attempt to root out this meme and we can make the practice this meme suggests more difficult to act upon.

Rooting out the meme is what the school officials and the police are trying to do by reducing the media attention paid to these events. But ham handed PR-based meme removal can backfire. I wish I had more good ideas in this area.

Making suicide by train more difficult is amenable to engineering solutions such as:

* Foam rubber "cow catchers" on the front of trains that would sweep the track, reducing the chance of death to the level where this method will lose its allure.

* Unobtrusive wireless cameras along the tracks in the areas where the suicides have taken place that can be monitored by the train engineers.

* Removing the level crossing and fencing off the tracks. This could help but this will take years. (Note: putting roads on an underpass like Oregon Expressway and Embarcadero is generally faster and less expensive than burying or elevating a train line.)

I only hope some creative thoughtful people can help with this problem or that this meme dies out before any more students are lost.

My sympathies to the family and friends of this child who died. I think now is time to mourn this loss, then we can catch our breath and see if we can look at ourselves and our community and take steps to reduce the chance of this happening again.

I think the person saying "put the trains in the air" was being satiric in regards to the simplicity of saying "put them underground". It was a joke.

As for the child, are we to assume it's a Gunn student, or is it just that... an assumption?

Good call on not releasing information... I worked on the radio in 1995, and the local news made a HUGE deal out of the 1000th jumper off the bridge, and it actually completely increased the frequency of suicide... people wanting to be number 1000.

You don't ignore it, but you also don't celebrate it.

The solution to this issue isn't going to be mandated by the government or public. It's going to be inside each individual home, where parents are becoming so self absorbed, busy, and detached that they are forgetting that parenting is a battle, and children deserve no privacy in the war for their lives. Be a parent, get in there... figure it out.

My heart goes out to the community, but press conferences, support groups, and all that won't help until each individual parent is able to talk to their kids about this, and their feelings and emotions....

Mireya,

That was an excellent message. I was raised in poverty, too, and the struggle gave my family strength. We only had one way to look, and that was up.

But no disrespect to the families that are dealing with this... it isn't EVER so simple to blame one person. But people taking their lives deserve some sympathy in that it's not a choice.. it's a disease that is causing them to make illogical decisions. They don't mean to destroy families and communities with a selfish choice to take their life.... suicide/depression is a powerful brainwash.

To Barron Park Parent-
The district has held quite a few meetings on the emotional well-being of our kids/teens in the wake of the recent suicides and it has been a topic of discussion at Board meetings. Maybe you disregarded those emails but I got them even when I wasn't getting emails about the building program!

The boy was a Junior at Gunn. The kids were told first period but the name was not released. I just got a call from my Junior son, in tears, because he was a friend of the boy, and he told me his name.

Peer pressure is more real to kids than parental pressure. We need to work with the whole student community to turn back the pressure dial. And that means to have kids help other kids and to stop trying to outdo someone else.

One has to ask, why it's almost always Gunn, and always at west Meadow cross.

IMO, it's time to build a pedestrian/biking bridge over west meadow. It's just too easy for youth to commit suicide. Something physical has to be done there.

People are arguing that the kids can always find the next train cross and do the same thing. But making it harder for kids to do the wrong thing would only help. Assuming the only available suicide spot is on the summit of Mt. Everest, there won't be much suicide at all. It's one extreme example. But the point is, you have to draw the line somewhere to help physically, rather than trying to fix all those young, wandering minds. That's something unachievable.

Let's build the Pedstrian/bike cross over West Meadow train cross.

Put it underground. Create more beauty and serenity. Might increase property values as a bonus.

From city's web site:
"City Council's Top Priorities
2009 - City Council Top 3 Priorities
Economic Health of the City
Civic Engagement for the Common Good
Environmental Protection"

Should they start to put protecting life of residents into their priorities? If not now, how many more they want to see...

I am so saddened to hear this. I thought it was the end of this unfortunate era in Palo Alto. I want it to stop. Students in Palo Alto have come together so much to show how much they care. There was the Talk group on facebook that gave out their phone numbers to strangers just so that they would know there is always someone to listen. It was so touching. Those people are still here. They still care.

realistically, i saw this coming. my condolences to the kid's family. this cycle isnt going to stop unless we talk.

Look guys the problem has nothing to do with school...
don't blame the teachers, they are the adults that i trust most in this world, not my parents or relatives, but some of my school teachers...
because they understand, my parent doesn't my family doesn't, teachers and students, they are all i need, oh yah
for those of you who believe its cal trains fault...its not
the student didnt want to live so he stepped in front of the train its that simple

Personally, I believe there is a problem with that particular train crossing. It looks and feels dangerous. I am a current parent of Paly/Jordan students. I thank god my children don't have to cross that track every day and think about whether they are going to get hit by a train.

My heart goes out to the child and his family. May he rests in peace. And may his family find the strength to heal.

No matter what the source of the pain was, it is a tragedy.

Please, our community needs to come together for the sake of all the kids who have to see this. My sister who is a senior at Gunn this year, and I saw the body laying on the tracks, as we drove by on our way to Red Mango, from the last suicide. She was mortified. I can't believe that some people are saying this is old news. This is beyond a problem! I'm scared for my youngest sister who is an 8th grader at Terman, who has been depressed. This is what is going on around her. My family lives a block away from where all these suicides are taking place; it's a nightmare. I'm ready to get involved, this has crossed the line a long time ago. One life lost is too much. Please post if there is anything the community is doing that I can get involved in. Thanks.

Not the trains? It sure as hell is the trains. If there were no access to trains, how many train deaths would there have been? And if not by train would these teens have been as motiviated to go find another way? some maybe, some maybe not. No trains would most certaily have meant fewer deaths. The easy access to trains are opportunistic for them. We need these trains either underground or stopped. We do not need more faster bigger trains.

Yes, we need to address our teens mental health, stress in our schools, access to support systems, AND we need to eliminate their access to trains. Just as we make every effort to eliminate their access to drugs and alcohol and weapons.

We might as well turn the Caltrain row into a firing range, and put up a crossing gate, and say - don't go on to the firing range when the lights are red...

We need the train situation fixed - yesterday.

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TOO LATE!!!!-- when you see the warning sings. It shows nothing but the defects of the education system. The way kids are raised. Kids are kids, they need a STRUCTURED SYSTEM!!!!! Set a STRICT boundary actually leads to TRUE FREEDOM. The system is too open and they have too many choices, including those that are bad and those they can't handle.

AngryParent,
If we were to put the trains underground, they would just find another way of killing themselves. We don't need to spend money on underground trains, but on more and better counseling. We need to stop this before it starts. Once someone has truly decided to kill themselves, there is nothing anyone can do. We need to stop them before they get to this point.

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Airlines are required to make safety improvements whenever spending $5.8 million saves a life. (see Web Link )

It would cost a lot less than that to make counseling services available at this intersection 24-hours a day for the next couple years, and probably save more than one life in the process. Even if the effect is to convince teenagers to try to kill themselves some other way, it would likely save lives, simply because some of the more frequently used suicide mechanisms are substantially less likely to be fatal than a train.

Why haven't we done so?

While the community and school make efforts to understand the root cause behind these suicides, from a near term standpoint, it may make sense to reduce the speed of the trains from University Ave to Mountain View to no more than 10mph. Yes it will mean a 10-15 minute delay overall, but I can't see any other way to deter these kids. This MUST stop.

Angry Parent - your logic would suggest that we put trains underground, hide all the knives in the kitchen, wrap bubble tape around people while they walk, etc. You enter into a slippery slope when you say something as simplistic as "it's the trains". It is so much more complex than that....

Forget trains, and think of the overall "teen suicide" issue:

Some Basic Facts

* In 1996, more teenagers and young adults died of suicide than from cancer, heart disease, AIDS, birth defects, stroke, pneumonia and influenza, and chronic lung disease combined.

* In 1996, suicide was the second-leading cause of death among college students, the third-leading cause of death among those aged 15 to 24 years, and the fourth- leading cause of death among those aged 10 to 14 years.

* From 1980 to 1996, the rate of suicide among African-American males aged 15 to 19 years increased by 105 percent.


Web Link


Teen suicide still happens without trains. Blaming trains is far too myopic.

Community parents -- let's work with PAPD and volunteer to keep an eye on the tracks for the rest of the school year! I can do one evening a month.

THE TRAIN IS NOT THE PROBLEM.

There are loads of at-grade crossings along the peninsula. Many of the other crossings have much poorer lighting, signaling and side walk barriers.

This is a social problem...not an engineering problem.

You may be able to convince yourself that by putting a taller fence, or brighter lights or better barriers we can engineer a solution for suicide prevention.

The fact is that the physical properties of the rail crossing did not factor into the child's decision to commit suicide. It was a location of opportunity.

The sad and telling issue here is that there are those in the community who believe there is an engineering solution that can prevent suicide.

This is a social/psychological problem that only social/psychological solutions will resolve. A deep understanding of C++, machine language , Unix or folding protein molecules may be comforting at work...it offers no comfort whatsoever to our kids.

To the "The Train is not the Problem" crowd:
The reality is that there is a very real problem with students in Palo Alto using a particular crossing. Providing somebody to help intervene will not stop all the suicides, but it will likely stop some -- and even be cost-effective when compared with other measures our society takes to protect human life. Even if the impact is only to induce Palo Alto teenagers to seek out other means of suicide, the effect will be to save lives, simply because some other suicide mechanisms are not 100% effective at causing death.

Cathy & PAPD - I can do one evening a month, too.

Post security personnel at the site 24/7.
Make their presence very visible, lighted and obvious - highly publisized.

I don't believe that making it "Illegal to walk across the tracks" could prevent anyone from committing suicide by stepping in front of a train. How do you prosecute the deceased? Everyone knows the dangers of walking across train tracks.
I would say that undergrounding the trains might prevent a majority of train suicides by making it a bit more difficult; however, a determined person could always enter the tunnel on foot.
Better to make a concerted effort to prevent suicide than to spend the funds necessary to remove one of the many means of committing suicide.

I have a radical suggestion: let's listen to what our kids are saying to us, not just in HS, but all the time. Kids who feel they have control over their lives and who feel successful don't attempt suicide. Our kids are under constant academic pressure from Kindergarten on, and as I've heard several of them say over the years, "Isn't my best good enough?" In Palo Alto, it seems, their best is not good enough.

I'm so sorry for this young man's family and friends. Please, if you know why this happened please tell someone in authority. If you're considering doing something like this, please find help. All these extreme reactions are individual grief responses. I'd love to have a task I could take on that I knew would prevent more of this. You might see me camped out by the tracks. Beware the next teenager to turn up at that crossing - if you so much as hesitate you might get a giant earful if not a full body tackle from an hysterical mom.

As the community attempts to deal with this latest tragedy, please avoid speculation on the reasons why this student or earlier victims took their lives. Mental health professionals have repeatedly stated that suicides result from many complicated factors and that there is hardly ever a single, simple explanation.

Family, friends, students and school officials are needing to focus right now on grieving and providing support for each other. Please respect that need by tempering your comments on Town Square over the next several hours. There will ample time to engage in a broader discussion about teen depression and how the community should respond. A previously scheduled public forum will be held at 7 p.m. tomorrow night at the Cubberley Community Center (see story above) that we encourage people to attend.

Most posts are all venting fears, blame and agendas.

Let us all simply stop. No assumptions can be made at this time. This is not in the best interest of the family or any students. Let us all just please now stop.
Think only of the family.
Let the investigators do their job.
Pray for the family now.

You could not have written your experience and insight any better. To me, you hit it right on the nail! I too was raised the same way. Perhaps it is a cultural thing? Perhaps it is a cultural-familial thing? Whatever it is, our parents and experiences obviously did something very special for us. Something that we are able to pass down to our children and our children to their children.

I am not blaming Palo Alto parents or families with "no culture". But it is something nice to put out there and look into. After all, this is happening in Palo Alto and not Redwood City.

My condolences to the family members of this child who now rests in God's arms.

I am a Paly grad now attending UC Berkeley. Both schools are well known for the intensity of their academic programs, yet I am much happier at Cal then I ever was at Paly. There may be many reasons for this, but one that I think is particularly relevant is that at Cal my professors emphasize learning the material over getting the top grades, and at Paly I felt there was much more of a focus on getting good grades regardless of the consequences. I think I can safely say that Cal is not a "dumbed down" school, so I know there is a way to exist in an academically high-achieving environment while feeling much less pressure than I felt at Paly. I don't know how the Palo Alto community could change the problems at Paly and Gunn, but I know that there are many problems in these schools that are not necessarily inherent in academically high-achieving programs.

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I just graduated this past June and this story is very upsetting to hear. I went through Gunn, I took all of the hard classes and I know how stressful life in high school can be -- especially junior year and first semester senior year. At times I am sure you could say that I was depressed.

However, it makes me sad to hear people blame Gunn for causing these suicides. Yes, Gunn is stressful -- but so is any high ranking high school. Getting into college is tougher than ever, and the stress placed on kids AROUND THE COUNTRY is really at the root of this issue. Sure, Palo Alto is a highly intellectual community that expects its kids to get into some of the top ranking colleges in the nation. Inevitably this will make Palo Alto a higher stress community, but it also affords unique opportunities to kids in Palo Alto that they could never find anywhere else. Getting to college has forced me to appreciate just how unique Palo Alto and its high schools really are.

I do not want to speak for the kids who have chosen to commit suicide, because I did not know any of them personally. However, this form of suicide follows from a very impulsive decision. I think the best way to help depressed teenagers at Gunn would be to set up a system where current Gunn kids could talk to older Gunn alum about how they handled the stress of high school. It's possible that the depression kids feel at Gunn does not need to be medicated, but rather counseled by kids who have gotten through the system already. They can offer advice and a perspective on how high school has fit into their plans later in life.

After being at college for about two months, I can tell you that college can be just as stressful as high school. Learning to get through my "low swings" in high school has taught me how to deal with stress in an even less protected environment. Also, the most helpful way for me to get through the initial stress of midterms and adjusting to a new lifestyle has been to talk to upperclassmen, friends and my parents.

My heart goes out to the Palo Alto community. To all of the high schoolers now worried about getting into their college of choice, not getting into my top choice was terribly upsetting, but it wasn't the end of the world. For those who feel depressed, people are out there who want to help. Let them know, and they can.

I'm saddened and shocked by yet another suicide. In my observation, as a Mom in the Gunn community, kids are sorely lacking a healthy balance in their lives. Many in our community, myself included, feel that there's far too much emphasis on academic achievement, winning, being financially successful, and not enough on quality of life pursuits (such as talking or playing games with family and friends, doing a creative hobby, reading, hiking, visiting a neighbor). Those types of activities are important for kids' self-esteem and personal satisfaction - qualities that will help them manage inevitable disappointments and set backs throughout their lives. Yet, since such activities don't result in a grade, a high test score, an award, acceptance to an elite college, they are discouraged, considered a waste of time. With an extreme emphasis on accomplishment, kids may not be developing a core sense of being enough just as they are. We need to ask ourselves, as parents, educators, as a community, if we value our kids for the unique, precious human beings they are. Competition and striving to achieve goals and dreams are a healthy part of growing up, but if kids begin to compare themselves to others they perceive as smarter, prettier, richer, stronger, they need to feel in their core being that they are loved and valued above all. I wonder whether love and acceptance over getting ahead and winning are being sincerely conveyed by our children. Are these our values?

I just heard from my own Gunn junior who is safe. The young man will be missed and our hearts go out to his family.

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I as well just graduated this past June from Gunn. I saw first hand what the pressure and stress could do to my friends, and yes I was friends with the other two kids who passed away last year as well. To see that this is still going on hurts me and the community. My heart goes out to his family.

Even though it may not prevent suicides, putting the train underground gets rid of the easiest way to commit suicide. Also, having been a witness to one of the scenes after the incident occurred, I can tell you I NEVER want to see those trains blowing past Palo Alto at 30+ mph again.

RIP. Suicide isn't a logical sound choice. People like you or me will never understand because our brains are not wired in the same way as someone's who is prone to committing suicide is. It isn't about being selfish or weak, it's about being overwhelmed and not knowing who to turn to.

The tracks have been there for 80 years? 100 years? They didn't suddenly become dangerous in the last six months.

Wasn't it foresighted of the PAUSD to close Cubberly, therefore forcing the OVERWHELMING majority of high school students to cross tracks twice per day.

I have one who graduated from Gunn this Spring (friend of one of those who died, classmate of the other), and one who just started at Gunn this Fall. My child texted me earlier today about the news.

I was going to post something here, but Brian Guth-Pasta, a sage young adult, just said everything in an above post that I would have; about getting rid of the easiest way to commit suicide, about people being overwhelmed and not knowing who to turn to (or even that they can turn to someone!) in critical moments, et al.

This is too heartbreaking. I would be willing to volunteer time to monitor the crossings in the evening but for how long? It seems to be me that this can only be a stopgap measure. I wish the solution was so simple.

I am saddened to hear of this tragedy. I do not personally know any of these people but I think the train tracks must be blocked or made inaccessible somehow. I think it keeps happening here because once it happens the first time the idea is planted in the minds of others who might be in similar mental states. Also, something must be done to mentally help these people. The fact is you cannot stop suicide entirely but if you remove the ideas from the students in this position you could save all their lives and lessen the rate immensely.

Its becoming more of an epidemic. I graduated in the 09 class, and my friends and i all took rigorous AP courses. These classes weren't overly stressful, and I am no genius. If kids can't handle the class, they shouldn't be taking it. Not only that, but I have serious doubts that any of these suicides were based solely on stress.

Obviously, the parents are freaking out about stress levels, but they are completely ignoring the simple fact that many kids go through stages of depression during puberty. I have felt depressed sometimes, and I have no reasons to.... chemical reactions i guess. And I bet some people have this in a much more intense version.

It sucks that all this has to happen, but its really an epidemic that could possibly continue for a while. (google france telecom, lithuania and Japan suicide epidemic, etc)

Its almost impossible to predict what will happen.

My heart goes out to the entire family at this horrifically sad time. You are in our thoughts. Hugs to you all. I am so, so sorry.

This is heart breaking and scary. It is so sad for all those families who have lost their kids.Please let us work together to find a way to stop this.Nothing is worth this. I fear for my child's mental health- just having to deal with this sadness over and over in such a short span.
May God grant the family strength to deal with this.

Here's a CNN article about young Latinas going through similar stresses.

Web Link

Maybe there is something leading from that which could help to deal with this anomie. Perhaps there needs to be a more humane set of community core values beyond academic success, achievement, and being part of the right group.

I'm a woman born and raised in Palo Alto, Gunn graduate and have lived much of my life here. My mother went to Gunn as well.

I find it comical that the parents and other community members are lashing out at each other back and forth in this message board, but no one is listening to the 1 or 2 actual students who are piping up. Doesn't that seems strange to you?

Here's what I think:

1. Thinking that you can actually prevent a suicidal person from killing themselves is absolutely ridiculous. Just think without Caltrain as the popular option, kids could even more easily down everything in your medicine cabinet, grab a razor in the bathtub or take a stroll onto 101. You might as well take that sentiment to the extreme and say that because you aren't keeping your kid in a bubble until they're 18, you are employing them to kill themselves due to all the access you provide in your home alone. As soon as they wake up in the morning there are a multitude of opportunities to kill oneself, I am floored by the ignorance of some of these postings.
And if you did change the Caltrain system to make it less available - don't you think that they'd find another day. After all, these are some of the smartest kids in the country aren't they? Give them a little credit, they are serious enough to kill themselves...

2. Thinking that you really have much control AT ALL over a kid 14+ is a joke. What would you really do to stop them from doing anything they want? I mean they can get drugs almost anywhere in Palo Alto(even on campus, the bus etc.) - while I was at Gunn kids used to pay homeless people to buy them booze, they'd cut class to get wasted and do who knows what else in the multi-million dollar houses available to them at all times...these things got a LOT worse in my younger sibling's class several years later. Giving them ultimatums or locking them up in house is really just going to cause revolt at the end of the day anyway.
Sure, Gunn is high-pressure, but what highschool isn't? Maybe you think your child would be better off in a lower-income area highschool? Get serious. There are the same set of problems everywhere. Be happy that most of the kids at Gunn & Paly are focused on getting into college vs. places were losing your virginity as a freshman is the most important thing to them.

3. Why is no one questioning all of YOUR parenting??
I think that, sure, going to Gunn is stressful. Like many people on this forum have said, this is one of the top schools in the country, of course it is going to be very competitive. It is a pride point after you leave. We are the cream of the crop and we are damn proud of it later in life. I think the basket-weaving comment is frankly hilarious, myself and all of the Gunn grads that I keep in touch with would be HIGHLY disappointed if standards of education were lowered because of this.
It is a parent's job to know their own children. To have a consistent dialogue with them so that they are trusted and confided in during these highly stressful years. You are the ones who are enrolling your kids in one of the most prestigious schools in the country - did you ever ask yourself, or better yet your kid (what a concept!!!), if THEY could handle the pressure? Are THEY doing ok? How you could help them?

Get serious. Stop blaming public transit; that is absolutely ridiculous. Blaming the school is equally so. Use this horribly tragic event as an awakening! Get to know your children in any way at all possible. Hopefully there's still time to fix whatever broken parental bonds there are with any other potentially suicidal kids.

He was a junior at Gunn

Let us all remember that a kind word can often turn a person's day around. Gunn is a fast paced school. Lots of activities and sports, not everyone is at the top of the game at everything. Remember to reach out to all the students, participants and players at each event. A few words of support can change so much in a life. My heart goes out to this family and all those touched by this tragedy.

Dan Ryan was right when he said these types of suicides come in clusters. I can remember a time when someone was jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge every week, you hardly hear of anyone doing that now. Instead East Meadow and the Caltrain tracks has become the favorite suicide location.

As a Gunn parent and volunteer my first thoughts go out to the family and friends of the latest suicide.

The things I least like about Gunn all have to do with the social climate. Things seem pretty relaxed on the surface but just below that there is a lot of anxiety, petty gossip, rudeness, and posturing. I hardly hear the students greet each other as they walk around campus. Even the few students I know rarely greet me and seem embarrassed if I greet them. It all seems sort of depressing, and I guess it is. I know this is high school, but even still it all seems more dreary and stressful than I remember from my own high school days.

I think the teachers are excellent and do all sorts of things to help their students excel, including lots of second chances and encouragement to negotiate. They don't seem comfortable kidding around anymore though, I guess since education has gotten so serious about standardized testing and school rankings and how many APs they have available.

In response to middlefield mom: how can you say that the reason for this suicide is because Palo Alto has "have and have nots". There is no way of knowing the cause of this suicide and their socioeconomic status may have nothing to do with whatever drove them to commit suicide.

Depression is not based on if you are poor or "filthy rich" and although it may seem selfish or harmful to people around you this is really not the time to point that out and be insensitive. People are mourning.
RIP

And a comment from Paly- we're sorry Gunn has to go through this yet again and we do sympathize and hope a solution can be found ASAP.

parents-
please stop blaming the schools for the stress created. All of the parents and the surrounding community are just as much a part of the problem. And seriously, changing the train tracks in any way will not fix the problem at all.
People should stop focusing on placing the blame and instead work towards fixing the problem. Stop sitting at your computers and ranting about the fact that the schools and the palo alto community are not doing their job- if kids are killing themselves then it is in huge part a responsibility of the parents. As a student, I know that I cant expect my school to be responsible for making sure that not only am i getting an adequate educational experience but also that my mental health is in order, as well as that of my 2000 peers. Parents- focus on your individual child. you spend the most time with them and probably stress them out just as much as the school aspect of their lives does. All of the parents who are blaming the school are just being insecure about the fact that they dont know how to help their own kids and make sure it doesnt happen to them. stop blaming others and take some responsibility.

This is very sad news and my condolences go out to the families. I would just like to say that although it may be true that there is a lot of pressure on these students, there is obviously more to it. I attended high school in Palo Alto and there has always been a ton of pressure to do well. I also can't help but notice that the suicides and suicide attempts have all been from Gunn students. I have nothing against Gunn, but its worthy noting that Paly happens to be right next to the train tracks, yet suicides have not recently been a problem. I think that there is more than meets the eye to all this.

Be kind to everyone you meet for everyone is fighting a hard battle.

[Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.] It someone is an alcoholic, the first step to recovery is to recognize the problem, not to pretend that it does not exist. We the district, school and community are in denial, because to accept we have a problem is to accept that we have failed our students.

So Im awake, and hear the train coming and as usual the horn is blaring! All of the sudden you hear the ever so familiar lately steel grinding from hard braking on the tracks. I instantly knew another kid went and cut their life short.

People blaming Caltrain are ridiculous in my opinion. A train travelling at 20 mph is a lethal rate of speed. Maybe people havent heard but a train is very very heavy and requires substantial force to move or stop. Even at 8-10mph which is considerably slow for a train it can still kill you from the sheer weight and force of the mass. If a person is bent on suicide they will find a way. Regardless of what cal train does and has already done it will not stop someone from jumping in front of a train. Why this particular intersection is being used seems very suspicious to me.

There is also a lack of participation and concern from our local leaders. There is a school meeting for Paly and Gunn HS coming up very soon. I would hope that aside from the unnecessary renovations they will speak in depth about this problem of teen suicide we are having here in Palo Alto.

Its un-nerving to hear a train squeal and know that someone has just died across the street on the tracks. Especially when it becomes so familiar that you dont have to wait for the media to report it. I only hope that these suicides dont leave an impact on my children and open suicide as a viable option. Is it really that tough to go to school and become a success living and going to school here in Palo Alto?

I know people are grieving and I'm sorry that these people chose to end their lives. I'm sorry that the parents friends and community have to endure this. With so many suicides from the same age group and community happening, you have to ask these questions?

1. What is the depth of the parents involvment?(not for blame, but for perception of what was in excess or lacking as far as parenting goes. To set a standard for at-risk-youth in this area.)

2. What was their daily routine and activities?

3. What in their life could have ever made them open suicide as an option?

I might catch flack for saying it but everyone knows schools, counseling, police, doctors, medication can only do so much. Its the parenting and life experiences that make us all who we are. Whether you did exactly what your parents said, and turned out exactly as they wanted. Whether you did nothing they said and did everything you wanted, it is their molding and direction for you that determined the choices you made to become the person you are today.

I realize that there are many sensitive people out there who will find this offensive towards the families of these suicides. Any loss of life is a great loss, and I do apologize to those families if they come across this, but I stand by my opinion and hope that someone who can do something about this problem does do something about this problem. Cause it seems like its a big circus for a week or two and then its business as usual again in Palo Alto. If I had the time I would stand guard out there at the intersection with a small table and a good book. That kinda thing is right up my alley.

While we shouldn't blame the schools, it's important to look at the experience of the students and to try to understand what is contributing to the hopelessness and distress that many students feel, even the ones who wouldn't consider suicide. Shouldn't the schools and community work together to see how we can make adolescence a more positive experience in P.A.?
My own daughter often feels overwhelmed and unable to complete all of her school work. She's currently being treated by a doctor for an illness brought on by continual stress and fatigue. Last week she had 4 important tests and a composition due on Friday. On Saturday she had SATs, and on Sunday she had to work with a tutor for 2 hours and spend 5-6 hours on the rest of her homework. When was she supposed to relax? I hear other parents talk about their children getting very little sleep, staying up to get it all done, so I know this is fairly typical. (Some parents say this with pride, which I don't understand.) Sure, it's not just a Palo Alto issue, but it is definitely an issue here, and we aren't dealing with it. No one's suggesting getting rid of AP courses, but if we aren't honest with ourselves about the effect of the load on students, we won't understand the amount of stress most teens here feel.
More importantly, are our schools educating the whole student in a way that helps them form their values, think creatively, develop as people and feel good about themselves (not just academically or athletically)? Or is the emphasis way too much on academic performance in a very narrow sense, focusing on the memorization of facts, testing, etc.? Because of this and the never-ending stress, I fear that my daughter has lost a lot of her old enthusiasm for learning and reading in high school; I can only hope that she recovers some of it in college.

To Paly Pop,
I like your post, let's hope it stays long enough so people can see it, before Palo Alto on Line gets rid of it. It seems like they only want positive things to be posted. I have been watching the comments and how the ones that suggest any responsibility to the way our educational system is working, get erased.

I'm listening.....I'm listening to the student (or two) who commented on this tragedy. Sounds like they either know the stress this young boy was having or at least knows the stress of being a teenager, home life, school life, dating scene. Knows more than us anyway.

All the other posts are parents that are shocked, scared, worried and guessing. They just want it to stop or to do something. Anything would feel better.

But I'm listening to the students. This would be a good way to educate us parents and stay annonymous.

So I'm listening.....

Anti-suicide patrols on the Golden Gate bridge prevent about 60% of planned suicides there (see Web Link )

The reality is that like the Golden Gate Bridge, where it took years to get approval for the not-yet-installed suicide-prevention nets, it is going to take us years to alter the physical structure of this crossing. Palo Alto could implement 24-7 patrols within a few days. Patrols won't be 100% effective, but at the current rate, they'll save a couple lives a year.

I could also guard the rail road. I tried before, but the police assured me that they were going to be there, and that I did not have to do it. Count me in! If there are enough parents it will not be so hard on us. You are right the police does take care of it for a little while and there is regular business, and there is not followed up, at least we are not informed. Instead our attention gets distracted into the remodeling of the schools, or the way our children score.

I suggest that EVERYONE -- PA Online included -- do a little research into the concept of suicide "contagion." Here is a piece on reporting from the CDC (it's old, but still pertinent).

Web Link

There have been NUMEROUS cases where there is a DIRECT link between media coverage and instance of suicide. You can read about them on Google. It's not out of the realm of possibility that this is what we're seeing here in Palo Alto.

These instant news stories, message boards and facebook status updates are NOT helping. While there are certainly underlying issues driving these kids towards suicide (i.e. I am not arguing that news coverage alone leads to suicide), talking about suicide is not helping.

Talking about ways to deal with stress, depression (underlying causes) YES, but suicide itself NO. There comes a point where the suicide becomes 'glorified' to an extent and that must be avoided at all costs.

I think there definitely needs to be a some changes in the track/train situation.

Everyone keeps talking about the stresses of the school systems, but i dont think that's what the problem is. Were not the only area dealing with these stresses. I know go to a competitive school back east where people are under a fair amount of stress, just as much as at paly, and there haven't been any suicides in my time here. A lot of my friends come from areas that are equally high pressure and none of their schools have had the same suicide pandemic that we've had.


I didn't personally know any of the students that have died recently, but i'm guessing that their suicides were fairly impulsive. And that's where I think changing something about the trains would make a difference. Yes students could still find some other way of commiting suicide but I feel like the more difficult the process becomes, the less likely students are to do it. In high school your emotions are up, down, and in the time it would take to figure out another way, their moods could have shifted.

I like the ideas of slowing down the trains, or putting some foam or something on them. At the very least there should be better lighting and security guards walking the tracks full time.

>>Even at 8-10mph which is considerably slow for a train it can still kill you from the sheer weight and force of the mass.

The point is not that suicides will be prevented if trains travel at 8-10mph, but set the speed to whatever the reaction time is required for the engineer to stop the train when he sees a person near the tracks. Clearly, at current speeds, there is no time to apply brakes and prevent the collision.

We need some measures in place NOW, and reducing Caltrain speeds for the Univ Ave<-> Mtn View stretch is one that will serve as a deterrent right away.

Yes - he was a Junior at Gunn. My daughter is his sister's friend. It is devastating. Gunn is not the only high stress school in this area. I don't believe that the socio-economic structure at GUNN family homes is any different from that of say - Paly or Monta Vista. Why are kids at these other schools - not behaving in a similar manner. I have not seen any body address this "Copy Cat" phenomenon that seems to exist at Gunn. What can be done to discourage these kids from following this path.

I have recvd several emails from GUNN and PAUSD about various - meetings and seminars orgaznized by Grief counselors. But there is only so much that a school can do.

But - something must be done about E/W Meadow Caltrain crossing (more lights, higher fencing, patrolling ???) . How long are we going to stand by and watch one child after another cross the lines. yes - it certainly doesn't solve the fundamental problem - but it will most certainly discourage the kids from this "copy cat" behaviour.

> The tracks have been there for 80 years? 100 years?

145 years. The tracks opened in January 1864, before Palo Alto even existed.

High school students died on the tracks as far back as 1927, prompting calls for grade separations. Web Link

As I read through the comments it's obvious that we can blame very well. The blame has been put on the parents, the victim, the school, the police and the community. If we new the answers to why, we could stop this.

My concern is that each time we are faced with the loss of life in a tragic way a forum is held with a host of professional.
How many of these professionals have taken time from their busy schedules to just be in the community, wheither attend teenage functions, engage in activities in the community where they have acces to students,things to let the kids see who they are and that they are there for them always. Let the kids know you are not just a professional, a person in a suite, but a real person they can talk to.
I work on a college campus and I make a point of getting out of my office to go around the campus and meet the kids, stop in the hang out groups and see what's going on in their lives. Many of the kids don't know me in the beginning but get to know me by word of mouth.

No I do not have a graduate degree, but I care.

So please parents degree or no degree get into the community and befriend the kids. You don't stop voulunteering and getting to know the kids just because they move to high school.

For many when their kids were in basketball, soccer, tennis or any other sport in the lower grades they were there on the sidelines cheering them on and any other kid on the team wheither they are skilled players or not.
We don't stop cheering just because they are in highschool. We don't stop cheering because they say we need to give them space.

So please let's stop blaming. Let's get back into the community, meet at the courts, soccer fields, tennis courts, on the weekend to see who, if anyone shows up to play. It may be hard at first but word will get around about the pick up games or where everyone is hanging out. Let's use all tools conventional and unconventional to reach all kids in the community not just the ones we know or the poplar kids, but all kids.

Some may say this is crazy, but it puts parents (regardless of your credentials back in the community.

it's interesting how there are waves of suicides. I remember during my time at paly there were several suicides on the tracks behind the school, and now there seems to have been several nearby gunn.

I think the constant exposure to coverage about suicides, coupled with seeing the train go speeding past several times a day is responsible for the large number of suicides on the caltrain tracks.

look up suicide contagion- a process by which exposure to the suicide or suicidal behavior of one or more persons influences others to commit or attempt suicide

psych drugs kill. dont take drugs. adress the spiritual problem of technical society. research spirituality

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I am sorry for the pain of the families, and of the community.

I believe the students who posted that this person's suicide had nothing to do with school. I think that was true of the previous suicides of Gunn students as well. Knowing a modest amount about the families, I think there is no point in blaming the parenting.

I understand there is evidence that the availability of the tracks is a factor in suicide rates, and we are experiencing a cluster. There is a difference between thinking of suicide and having a plan; in the case of these train tracks the plan is too easy to make, too accessible, too easy to carry out and too fatal. I can't imagine how hard it is to cross the tracks every day if you have thought of suicide yourself (as I did as a teenager, and so did my siblings.) Why not put up more lights, if this might discourage someone? Why not patrol? In the long run I do think we should have grade separation.

This is not in reference to past suicides, but for parents thinking of how to help students cope, I have found it incredibly valuable to my kids to be part of a church community where we consciously, out loud, value each person for their inherent worth. It's a place for a kid to be a big fish in a small pond, a place where values are a high priority, a place where it's normal to question everything and to have deep personal discussions.

If you're not sure where you would go to church you could take the quiz at www.beliefnet.com called "belief-o-matic."

To K resident of greenmeadow :

A train travelling at 30MPH takes roughly 1/4 mile to come to a complete stop, or 30 secs. from when the conducter or passenger pulls the E-brake.

Thats from the mouth of my train Engineer buddy, Thnks Matt.

jim

"The issue is " Cal Train ". The speed of cal train is very fast. The warnning light is very short." This is not the issue.
I did not lose two good friends by accident. The issue is whatever is driving people to commit suicide. I went to Gunn, and I know full well the stresses and pressures the academic environment there fosters. Parents put too much pressure on kids. But the school is not to blame, the parents are not to blame. In fact there is nothing here to blame. There are only confused overwhelmed kids who need help. Why is there none?

Max

These kids are not selfish. They have no one to turn to. There is a difference

Glad to see all the comments from people who understand why it is important that all these incidents have happened using the same method at the same crossing. Glad to read the informative links posted by several of these commenters.

Here is another:
Web Link

It is NOT always true that "they would have done it anyway." Sure, one or two might have, but if a kid does have an impulse like this, we need to make sure it is not *easy* to go through with it. We need to make sure this is not the first thing Gunn students think of when they feel stressed or hopeless.

Adolescent suicide is often somewhat impulse driven. It can also be contagious as we are seeing the past five months. Even the mode of suicide is contagious. Even though the underlying cause of depression or suicidal impulse may have been different in each case, most of these kids could have been cured if they were treated and could have gone on to live happy lives.

Short term, we can try to halt this epidemic by posting adults at the Meadow St crossing and at other crossings. It would seem we need coverage 7-10 am and then probably 2:30pm until 1 or 2 am on school days and perhaps 8am-2am on weekends.

Burying or elevating the tracks or building underpasses under the tracks would likely help longer term. This will take years and cost tens of millions just for Palo Alto.

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This may have nothing to do with the tragic incident, but I have to say that I am very disappointed about how Paly has responded to my child's needs when he was depressed and upset a while back. The signs for students to go ask for help and talk to their school about their problems is there, but when my child had a situation that was making him unhappy, and he cried and cried about it, he found no one to help. He was very sad and decided to ask for help to fix the situation. He talked to Paly Assistant Principal about it and the response was very negative. Whatever was bothering him was not big enough for the school adm to interfere and help. The school did nothing to help, and they knew he was sad, really sad about the situation. The response was just that it was not really a problem... . I learned about the issue and talked to him for days and everything is good now. But my point is that sometimes what is "nothing" for an adult, can be really something for a teenager and we should try to help them when we noticed that they are feeling sad. If they are crying for not reason, it is because there might be a reason for it.

This is the 4th attempted or sucessful suicide on that particular crossing, all happening at night or in the morning. We can spend a lot of time trying to figure out why these children feel driven to do this and what we can do to help with the underlying issues but PLEASE in the meantime we NEED to PROTECT this crossing. There is NO excuse to not spend money on security guards during the the critical times. There is a pattern here and I think we need to do whatever we can to protect our children. I as a parent demand that we, as a still wealthy community, find the money to do so.

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This particular subject should not be the vicitim of the Palo Alto Process. In the last few months there has been many a debate, but little action has been taken and we are seeing the results. Those who quickly dismiss the pressure these kids face, may not remember what it's like to be a teen. Maybe they just don't know what it's like to grow up in Palo Alto. Either way if things keep going the way they are going now, we have not seen the last suicide(s) at this crossing this year.

I volunteer for that!! I live across the street and would not mind spending some time outside late at night. Just walking the intersection or the tracks themselves. Maybe I can ask the police as i go to pick up my kids from school what kind of limits are their on a community based patrol of that intersection. Cause we all know them being there for a week or two isnt having any affect. Most likely the police will look at me and tell me they have it all under control and I shouldnt congest the walk ways or something to that effect. Parents lets get together and make our own patrol. Im in the grey Cadillac with excessive volume. (Sry, I know its an annoyance to some people)

All these rash assumptions about this person are disgusting stop trying to pertend you knew the person and go on with your lives leave the grieving as a personal matter not one for display on a stupid forum. It's about time we let his memory live through his friends.

Hi - like everyone else, I feel terrible about this recent loss to our community. I would like to stop this from ever happening again. Could we not use money raised by PIE to put a counselor/therapist, preferably young and empathetic, at each high school to simply run an open walk-in office, free for any kid to come in for any reason? KIds often find it easier to talk to someone they don't know very well about their problems. This counselor should have no other duties than to assist kids and make referrals for them or help them in any way possible.

I knew one of these kids and I OBJECT to the post that is is a guidance counsellor problem at Gunn. Give me a break, these kids have a mental illness! Guidance counsellors are career counsellors not psychotherapists! We have an epidemic of mental health problems in this area and we have little or no support for REAL help from medical professionals or liscenced therapists, because mental health isn't covered by most of our medical plans! Don't confuse career counselling from therapy!

Let's try something off-the-wall. Close that grade crossing. Put up 12 foot chainlink on both sides. No cars, no bikes, no peds. Let the kids cross the tracks at Charleston.

Old Hippie: if there aren't reasonably convenient legal crossings, people just cut holes in the fence. There are a number of stretches of track outside Palo Alto where this is quite common.

Having students crossing on informal crossings won't prevent suicides and it raises the risk of an accidental killing.

I'm glad the school and police department have decided not to hold a memorial or any type of remembering service for the child. That way, students who are only after attention when they commit suicide won't do it.

Gunn is putting too much pressure on the kids. People from Fremont come up to me and ask how my child can take the study program at that high school.

Etienne - The reason people are talking about it on this forum is that we've all been through the teenage years (yes, we've gone through what you are going through) and have more perspective than you do right now. He made a stupid choice. If he could undo it, he would, I guarantee it.

Concerned- that's clearly not the issue here.


My heart goes out to the family of the student, and hope the school is offering help to all.

So basically PAPD doesnt want people loitering around the tracks but if we see someone walking down the tracks I should report it immediately.

Wondering if I should go loiter anyways. See all the news vans out there. Kron NBC. Same old circus, again, and again.

I give PAPD 1 week of parking by tracks.

There is absolutely too much stress at gunn.
My daughter has to stay up to 5:30 in the morning to finish her homework.

Train Rider, I still say close the crossing. The chainlink along Alma will be visible to every car that drives by and the instant a hole opens up in the fence somebody with a cell phone can call the cops to come and close it.

Why are these kids out of the house at night?

I like how, like predicted, there were police officers near the crossing each day for a week after the last suicide. They all disappeared...

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So...........what do you think of your/our High School educational system? Would you be so displeased if your child told you any of the following " I feel overwhelmed,the class is too hard, don't like the teacher..."or tell you "I have growing pains and want to sleep in today", "I am so tired I didn't get to finish the study last night"..........Would you blow your top, give them a pep talk about how they are failing, tell them they are a disgrace to you...etc???

WHY can't school be tailored to fit a life?? We have all shoved our children into a cookie cutter situation where they are ALL expected to rise above, especially in this town....Haven't you ever heard of how the best dentist in town has children who's teeth need work?? (that's one example...)........Our school system needs a little overhauling to produce all around well adjusted children.......OR, we will end up with a society of sick children who can't face the reality of adulthood........beating their dogs, girlfriends, hating life, all because of their "failure" in High School..........

Can anyone speak up about Adolescent Counseling Services? Aren't their counselors available to all PAUSD students? I know they have an office in the Tower Building at Paly.

I wanted to know details about what happened and the first place I looked was Palo Alto Online. This is the type of information we need to share and I am surprised that "Annoyed" honestly believes that the school administrators care more about image than students - their salaries suggest that students are their primary concern.

Thank you Angry Parent for calling it like it is. Of course it's Caltrain's problem. Suicides on the GG Bridge are down since putting up barriers. It's not perfect, but we must have grade seperation to eliminate the temptation of a readily available way to commit suicide. Caltrain would love to discharge its' duty to deal with this. Let's not make it easy for them.

What about we close E Meadow cross for three to six months and everyone use Charleston cross instead?

The Merc is quoting Palo Alto police Sgt. Dan Ryan as saying he knows of "six or eight" other suicide attempts that were prevented. PAWeekly - can you clarify? Is he referring to students? To the train location? How were the other attempts "prevented"? I haven't heard numbers like this before.

I think the lesson you should teach the kids isn't "no problem can't be solved, go talk to teachers/counselor/parents and they'll help you solve the problem!" because that's not true. If I'm not getting an A in a class if I talk to the teacher will they give me an A because my life sucks? no.

The lesson that should be told is "sometimes life sucks and you just have to suck it up and don't kill yourself over it". There are times where you won't get a good grade in a class and there are times where the girl you like is going to treat you like poop or whatever. I (and I'm sure many other people) have other problems in their lives that are beyond grades and relationships but hey guys, suck it up and move on with you lives.

Adolescent suicide is often somewhat impulse driven. It can also be contagious as we are seeing the past five months. Even the mode of suicide is contagious. Even though the underlying cause of depression or suicidal impulse may have been different in each case, most of these kids could have been cured if they were treated and could have gone on to live happy lives.

Short term, we can try to halt this epidemic by posting adults at the Meadow St crossing and at other crossings. It would seem we need coverage 7-10 am and then probably 2:30pm until 1 or 2 am on school days and perhaps 8am-2am on weekends.

Burying or elevating the tracks or building underpasses under the tracks would likely help longer term. This will take years and cost tens of millions just for Palo Alto.

A faster, cheaper and probably more effective method would be to design some kind of people catcher for the front of each train. Given the physics of a moving train connecting with a person standing on a railroad tie, even a well designed catcher with a cradle, some kind of impact-activated fast lifting mechanism to lift the person off the ground and airbags to cushion impact would still result in very serious injury for anyone on the track and probably some would still die anyway. However, most people attempting suicide (most especially kids) are not going to choose a method that has even a 20% likelihood of leaving them alive but seriously mangled. Thus, even if the mechanism still results in 50%+ fatalities, it may reduce the attempts to zero.

Any clever mechanics reading this who want to give this idea a go? Anyone with the railroad who can make this happen?

And KRON says police have prevented "8 to 10" other attempts in "the same area."
What is this?

Local Palo Alto residents are out trying to run over the media. A white suburban registered to an address in the 2400 block of South Court almost hit a photographer in the cross walk. Driver was yelling "No one wants you here!" PAPD is on scene and investigating.

I find it really disconcerting that after all of these incidents nothing dramatic was done. I understand that it's nearly impossible to underground the caltrain quickly, or even at all, but KARA and the rest of Gunn's councilors need to step up and address the obvious issues at Gunn. It is apparent that whatever is being done now is neither helpful nor productive. Not only that, but no one even tells the students, or hardly acknowledges that we have rights to hear what's going on, and to learn from others.

The school district is not doing its job to modulate the school pressures that affect the kids. There is no other community with this type of issue with multiple suicides in such a short time span. Don't fool yourself, there are unfortunately more to likely occur. I am looking to move to a healthier community for my children. One that has some school / life balance like it used to be.

Old Hippie: that's true along the Central Expressway through Mountain View too, and the reality is that gaps in the fence persist for a remarkably long time.

If you remove the need for people to cross, it would make a difference, but so long as people live on the opposite side of the tracks from their school, they will cross. Fencing plus a pedestrian underpass might make a difference here, but fencing alone won't help a bit.

I read many previous comments here that share a common theme: that because Action X won't completely solve the problem by itself, it is nonsense to bring it up.

But that's not the way we deal with most other dangers in modern life. For example, what do we do to prevent getting injured or killed in a highway accident? Do we buckle our seat belt? Or do we take care of our car, so the brakes and steering and wipers work? Or do we concentrate on our driving and avoid distractions? Or do we keep our speed reasonable?

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. We do ALL those things. It's not a matter of OR, it's a matter of AND. No matter how important we think any one of them is, we know that in a real-life situation, we won't know ahead of time which one of them will be key to staying safe. So we do them all, if we're thinking straight.

Why not apply the same principle here? Look carefully at the school experience. AND look into parents' attitudes. AND improve counseling and early detection of depression. AND post multiple guards at the crossings 24 hours a day. AND slow the trains down. AND do a grade separation so cars and kids aren't crossing the tracks. AND probably a few more things.

I agree with the statement that the Social Psych Student posted.

It's probable that most of these cases after the first were impulse driven copycat incidents. If you'll note, after JP, the rest of these incidents (including the known attempt) occured at night. Nighttime is when one is most alone, and has time to come up with wild ideas.

To Paly Pop
I am a student at Paly. I take 4 AP classes and at many times am way busier than i would like to be and maybe feel stressed. But please STOP blaming the school for these issues. Trust me, i have too many things against the administration, and the way the palo alto community functions, but you cant expect them to regulate that. The schools are here to provide your children with the best education possible and make sure that they are able to succeed to the best of the abilities. If your daughter is feeling overwhelmed, she DOESNT have to take those hard classes. The pressure she feels is probably not only from you as a parent but also from her surrounding community and environment. You cannot expect the schools to make their classes less academically challenging so your daughter can hang out with the family and relax. if thats what you want her to do, she can change her schedule. I cant deal with the fact that all of these parents commenting on this site keep blaming the school-- it is YOUR responsibility to look out for your children. Maybe if the parents would shut up and listen to what students are feeling you would realize what's really the problem, since the students happen to be the ones killing themselves, not the parents.

I understand that we are respecting the person who died today but the more we broadcast this, the more likely it'll happen. The reason why there are so many suicides in the same place all from Gunn is because the first suicide was so public and widespread that it gave the others ideas. The first student was like the person who "gave permission" to the others to have a copy-cat suicide. I personally think that we should keep this type of news a little bit quieter. The more copy-cat suicides there are, the more students are going to feel like they can do it too

Its ridiculous to blame the deaths on Caltrain.

Running the trains slower or brighter or louder will not stop someone from jumping in front of a train.

There is no meaningful difference between the at-grade crossings at W. Meadow, Charleston or Churchill Avenue.

The only real difference is that this crossing holds meaning to the kids who are using it as location to attempt suicide.

The place makes a statement...that is why they use it. It may even be possible to make the location MORE attractive by making it more different than the other crossings along Alma.

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There is an impulse element to suicide. Making the train crossing less available will not cure depression, but will help prevent suicide.

Scott Andersen wrote a very interesting piece in the NY Times Magazine on July 6, 2008.

When they put up a suicide barier on the Ellington Bridge, "a notorious suicide bridge" in Washington, DC, many thought that jumpers would go to the adjacent Taft Bridge moments away. Andersen said, "Except the opponents were wrong. A study conducted five years after the Ellington barrier went up showed that while suicides at the Ellington were eliminated completely, the rate at the Taft barely changed, inching up from 1.7 to 2 deaths per year. What’s more, over the same five-year span, the total number of jumping suicides in Washington had decreased by 50 percent, or the precise percentage the Ellington once accounted for."

Also, "In a 2001 University of Houston study of 153 survivors of nearly lethal attempts between the ages of 13 and 34, only 13 percent reported having contemplated their act for eight hours or longer. To the contrary, 70 percent set the interval between deciding to kill themselves and acting at less than an hour, including an astonishing 24 percent who pegged the interval at less than five minutes."

The full article is at:

Web Link

This isn't something related to schoolwork or grades, at least not directly. THe fact is, its a horribly unfortunate coincidence that there were four teenage suicides at the same school. All of teh students were diverse in thier likings and family life and academic performance. JP just made a decision that seemed to trigger other feelings in people

How can we get the message across to parents that spending money and time on mental health IS A BETTER DEAL than spending it on tutoring, sat prep classes, chinese school, resume building trips all over the third world, private college counselors, etc.?

How can we get the message across to parents that a school can only go so far to help? Yes we have a dedicated counseling staff, ACS, and school psychologist but they are the front line. Parents who suspect their child needs help must take responsibility and get medical care. Don't expect mental help to be free courtesy of the community or state.

Noel, I totally agree with what you wrote:
>> Adolescent suicide is often somewhat impulse driven. It can also be contagious as we are seeing the past five months.

An underpass or overpass can help our community.

Also, I believe that If a teenager is unhappy, crying and/or depressed about anything, anyone and everyone should try to help, but, unfortunately, there is no real help in our high schools (not at Paly at least).

There are community meetings, people talking about what to do to help, but when a teenager has a problem there is no help. My son was sad at school and no one helped. He did seek help at school and was turned away. We learned about how he was feeling (not from school) and we were able to help him out.

Again, we cannot rely on our schools to help our kids, we need to pay extra attention to our teenagers and we need to help them at home.

For Paly administrators, in my opinion, kids are just numbers. Sure they want them to do good and have high grades, and sure they don't want them to get hurt, but they do not want to get involved in helping them when they are sad about situations that they consider not a real problem. They forget or don't know that small problems for teens can became huge problems in their minds.

In my son's case, we were extremely disappointed of how the school responded to his needs. His clear signs of sadness was not relevant for the people he talked to. I was sad too when I realized what was happening and how no one cared about his feelings and opinions.

NBC News is parked across from Gunn High School, they claim to be "waiting to interview students as part of a series on adolescent grief counseling." If you would like to call them to air your opinion on their presence, the number for NBC is: 415-276-1111.

another parent: Really good article. Notable that the suicide barrier on that bridge worked for two reasons:
1. the next bridge over had a higher railing, discouraging impulse suicides
2. the problem bridge wasn't closed, so the depressed didn't just find themselves at the next bridge over

This strongly suggests that a couple years worth of patrols at the Meadow crossing followed by the conversion of this crossing into an underpass will eliminate the problem.

Overpass, underpass, it all costs money. Who's paying for it?!?!?!

"Student 8" (30 minutes back); you got it right. Wake up parents

student 8 is definitely right. why are the parents not listening to the kids ?!?!

There will always be teens who want to kill themselves on a dark, sad, stressed out night. But only in Palo Alto (and a small number of other places) is it so easily done. At one point in adolescence I considered pills (nah, it might make me nauseous before it killed me and I hate feeling nauseous), wrist-slitting (nah, I hate the sight of blood), gun (where would I find one?). My community didn't have bridges or freeway overpasses to jump from. The whole thing was just so un-doable that it gave me time to get through whatever dark cloud had enveloped me for a while. It was almost comforting, thinking of the various methods and the various things I might write in a note. Had there been a commuter train handy, who knows. Yes there is stress and depression in high school, but there always has been! High school kids are a lot nicer to each other now than they were in the 50s and 60s. On the other hand, expectations for performance have gone through the roof since I was a kid. I was the valedictorian of my senior class and took exactly TWO AP courses. So yes things are worse in that department.

Parents, keep in mind the big picture. What will your child be when s/he is 30 years old? A doctor, a lawyer? President? Business person? Engineer, school teacher? Very few of those professors REQUIRE one to go to Harvard, Yale, Stanford or Berkeley. You can be great at all those things with an undergraduate degree from Cal State or University of Florida.

How about hairdresser, soccer coach, building contractor, landscaper? Plenty of the people doing these jobs now in fact DID go to high-end universities. So what was the point of all that stress and hard work in high school? Kids these days may not know this, but we do. We owe it to them to share this valuable info.

Student 8 is so right. My heart goes out to the child's family, and to the rest of Gunn community. We have had our share of tragedies, but I am so proud of the teachers, administration, students, and families at Gunn for sticking with each other and for reaching out. Please continue to provide support for your fellow Gunn community members.

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There is much we don't know about this suicide cluster. They may have little to do with pressures at Gunn. Identical pressure indeed exists at many local schools, and indeed around the world. Local kids are killing themselves at other places in smaller numbers in less spectacular ways.

We do know however that in about the last six months something drove four Gunn students to commit suicide, and according to the Palo Alto police, about 6-8 additional attempts at suicide, AT ONE VERY SHORT STRETCH OF TRACK, and in every reported case between about 8 and 11PM. Not at Charleston, not at Churchill, just East Meadow, and pretty much just those hours. The reasons for this may be related to depression, pressure, social relations or a host of other things, but clearly a piece of this relates to place and precedent. It is also possible that some of these may relate to impulse, just like at the Golden Gate Bridge (there's a documentary film on that).

It would help to both post a more or less permanent watch at this one spot from say 7-11 PM. Caltrain could put cameras along tracks with images transmitted to Caltrain so personnel can see the tracks far ahead of train arrival. It would also be worthwhile to do a study of the kids involved, both the deceased and the survivors. We don't know the commonality of circumstances, but with these numbers, a study seems warranted. I am sure that PAUSD, possibly with parental donations and maybe even NIH funding, can learn something beyond all the assumptions here.

Stories in The Mercury suggest that a very large number of teens consider or attempt suicide, but only about 14 people ages 15-24 are known to have committed suicide in Santa Clara County in 2007, and only about 8-9 people commit suicide on Caltrain tracks statewide in recent years. Clearly there is a unique problem at East Meadow.

Student 8 and Trainsavvy,

Wonderful posts. It is hard to see schools unfairly blamed for these terrible tragedies. It just seems that the "culture" of Palo Alto dictates that kids are under tremendous pressure to succeed, no matter what the cost. Something has to change.

My thoughts and prayers are with the family of this young man.

I think that Gunn is a great school. We have a strong sense of community, and people who think that there is a horrible, intense atmosphere at Gunn are wrong. The administration is doing everything it can to prevent this from happening again, but none of this is Gunn's fault.
Every suicide has been a tragedy, and obviously it is no coincidence that they have all been Gunn students. But please stop blaming the schools. Don't make all of the students at Gunn feel like they are in a toxic, unsafe place when they are trying to heal from this.

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Right from kindergarten our kids are being taught to dream high, work hard and you will get what you want. Stop teaching them this. They need to know that life is hard. Very few of us get plan A for our lives, most don't even get plan B. They can't all be President, or the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, they are really unlikely to be even the next American Idol.

We need instead to teach our kids realistic goals, that life is unfair, and give them tools to help them get through the knocks in life which will surely come their way. If they learn to fail, they may learn to survive.

My heart goes out to the young man's family and friends.

At a time of grief, we all want to find a single reason to rationalize something that is difficult to understand fully. Sadly, there is no magic reason - blaming Caltrain, medication, parents, the school system in isolation fixes nothing.

The best approach is to think about a set of safety nets that can nurture and protect our kids and work as a community to improve and enhance those nets to reduce the odds of any kid falling through them.

The filters start with family, friends and community, lead on to the peer and crisis help resources, school district, counselors, medical professionals and finally sensible measures to ensure physical safety. The importance and order of these may be argued but there cannot be a single source of the problem.

That said, in a crisis cluster like this, it makes sense to deter those who might approach the tracks with such intent in the wake of such incidents. I'd be willing to donate towards a fund for posting a 24x7 presence at the tracks for the next year to deter discourage others while the community works on the safety nets.

As a personal responsibility, please take a moment to engage and affirm the young people in your life - children, their friends or the kids who you meet around town. A little kindness, engagement and acknowledgment can make a big difference to someone who is shy or inward focused - I know how much I benefited as a kid from the generosity of adults I was around. While its no guarantee, its one of the basic safety nets that you CAN do something about.

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[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

I'm glad to see many posts asking for guards, patrols or police at the crossing. Yes, I think many suicides are impulsive and if there is anything we can do to prevent people acting on the impulse then we need to do it. NOW, not later. Because it might be too late for another child.
And yes, taking direct action now does not absolve us from the responsibility to take a very hard look at how society ( with our active or passive support ) puts unreasonable pressure on our teenagers. Yes, life is always hard but do our kids need to feel they need to be perfect in all ways with perfect grades, resumes, ....to prepare for lives which we consider perfect?
I rather have my child live a long, healthy and content life than none at all.

I feel so sad for the boy, his family and his friends. I can't imagine what they must be going through and we need to do our very best that this will not happen again.

Who is the genius at The Weekly who decided to run the picture of the boy who took his life? OK, its news but how do you think the parents will feel seeing their son's image online. The boy is a minor. Somebody forget that? Do we have to worry about it showing up in print as well. Poor, poor taste, guys.

There definitely needs to be some counseling to these students about their options in higher education and life. Last year, 114 members of the senior class applied to Stanford, but only 16 to the University of the Pacific--an outstanding small liberal arts college in Stockton. Is that normal?

personally I know lots of kids in my class who talked to me about committing suicide cuz the classes were too hard

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[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Please, stop a moment and think. We're throwing blame around toward everything we can think of that might be causing this string of suicides without thinking about what's really important: the kids. People commit suicide for a host of reasons, including depression, stress, and impulses. We cannot rule anything out, and so we must stop looking for individual motives and start focusing on the bigger picture. We will never know why these people killed themselves, so there is no point in speculating. It dishonors the dead.

Instead, we should focus on preventing more suicides. Both Paly and Gunn have started "Someone to Listen" programs, where teens can anonymously talk to other teens about their issues. Both schools should emphasize the existence of their counseling departments, and make help more accessible to those who need it. It's important that these kids feel that the school, their parents, and their peers care about how they feel.

Please, stop throwing blame around and yelling at each other. Nothing is right about this situation.

One of the "students" states s/he takes a lot of AP classes, and is just fine, thank you very much, which I take to be a brag in this situation. The implication is if you "can't handle" it then don't compete with the big boys. But AP classes do not make you a better person. We don't know exactly why these suicides have occurred at Gunn (and Paly, not too many years back), but arrogant bragging of students is not needed here. BTW, Palo Alto is not the center of the universe, there are plenty of outstanding high schools out there in the U.S. and the world, and some I know are quite different and yet still outstanding. I know a world famous one in particular that doesn't even offer AP classes!

Paly parent and Ann,

The entire Paly guidance team, TAs, and most teachers support staff are incredibly compassionate and approachable. Please don't generalize from a bad experience--as unfortunate as it may have been. I'm sure this is true at Gunn too. The vast majority of people who choose to work at a public high school are motivated to do so because they like and care about young folk.

I agree with GunnDad, message about 545P tonight. Maybe the underlying causes of teen depression aren't addressed by separating pedestrians/cyclists/cars from the Caltrains tracks at Meadow, but 4 deaths and more attempts in less than a year is compelling. Some form of permanent preventative action needs be made. I think the legal term for a homeowner with a easy to access pool (no fence) is an attractive nuisance, and that is what this intersection has become.

To the Member of the Gunn High School Community, who just posted,
You are absolutely right, I have been trying to say that a lot, but people do not want to listen. Counselors were not available when the second student committed suicide. They were at a meeting.
I imagine that it gets worst during the school year, and when is time to sigh for classes. I know my children have to make like for three days, until one of them was finally able to talk to a conselor, but only to find out that she was leaving and he had to come back next day at lunch time again. Also remember this counselors are noot really psychologists or psychiatrist.

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

My most sincere condolences to the family and friends of the young man who died.

Our job right now, ALL of us, is to help those people get through this hard time.

Today is not the time to talk about fixing trains, or needing more school counselors, or what's wrong at Gunn.

We all need to open our hearts to everyone around us - to our children, to our classmates - and help each other. All of us. We're kind of all in this thing together, you know?

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I disagree with those who dismiss more guards at the tracks as a "band aid covering the bullet hole" solution. not only would it maybe stop the horrific trend, it would show teens that their community cares enough to try help them. if there was ever a good use of taxpayer dollars, this would be it.

There needs to be a correction in the thought that all four suicides were "Gunn students". The third suicide was in August and that young girl had never entered high school nor attended Gunn at all. Students from Gunn may have known her but her life ended before high school. Several attempts have been reported and they are not all Gunn students that have attempted to take their life. At least one of the attempts was also a student at another high school in Palo Alto. So, to make this a "Gunn" thing or even a school thing is really missing the mark. Sorry, folks but there is no one and easy answer or fix for this huge problem. We need to learn from the young people that are willing to engage in thoughtful conversation. They seem to be more thoughtful and willing than a lot of the adult posters in this forum.

My condolences...clearly, four suicides at one high school within such a short period is not normal.
Even though I'm no longer in Palo Alto...we're still grieving the loss.

I'm bike commuter who rides with the kids daily thru meadow, JLS, ELC past Jordan,thru Paly. I just want to give the moderator of PAOL a fist bump for what you go thru each time this happens, the posts are fast and furious, but there you are, not keeping is online, but inline, thanks again. Take a break and have dinner!

There were a lot of comments here, and maybe mine has been said before. It just seems to me that this is a copycat situation. Not to downplay the sadness of what's happened with these young people. But once the first couple of kids jumped on the tracks, others followed suit. Has this somehow become glamorous to teenagers? Has anyone compared Palo Alto's teen suicide rates with those nationwide? I have a hunch we're not unique. Teen suicide is a national problem.

Sometimes life feels like there is no prospect of ever enjoying anything, that the only type of love attainable is posthumous love.

Show everyone love, even if it is a small act. I have spent my whole life failing to help those who seem hopeless, and words cannot express how sorry I am that I did not at least try to help this young man.

My prayers go to his family, especially his sister, who is in a pivotal time of life herself.

Pray for compassion, please, pray for people to show their love before people decide life isn't worth it anymore.

Such a sad day

Dear Will,

I loved you more than you'll ever know. This is so painful for me that I can't even begin to think of what to say. I hope they have the song Lips of an Angel in heaven, so you'll never forget me :). I can't wait to see you again someday. You changed my life forever.

Love,
your princess

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Why do people come to such conclusions as "academic stress" or "helicopter parents" and not look at each and every one of these senseless deaths as individual incidents? The teachers and staff at Gunn are extremely dedicated and have only the best interests of the students in mind. My son (with learning disabilities) was encouraged and supported by the Gunn staff throughout the four years he attended school there. I was amazed at the amount of compassion and caring that he received from each of his teachers. Let's step back and take a hard look at each situation. rather than "clump" these suicides into a group. There is no easy answer.

What a tragedy! I am sorry for the family. I hope they find strength in this very difficult time. ((((HUGS))))

Hello, I'm 16, a junior at Palo Alto High, and I would just like to tell all you readers about my opinion on this.

I would just like to express myself that all of us, teenagers, have gone through depression from heart breaks, family and friend problems, and worst of all, school problems. If anyone should be mad, they should be pissed off at friends, family, and councilers, who aren't trying hard enough to tell anyone THEY HAVE SOMEONE TO TALK TO.

Everyone at Palo Alto High has an attitude of, "I honestly don't care about your life. I'm not going to be your physciatrist for a day." Everyone needs an attitude change. There are many people who are going through depression right now and the only people are helping is myself and a couple others, but the rest of the Paly and Gunn students don't seem to give a s**t about another human being. I heard today at Paly, people were saying, "Oh my god! Not again! Anyone who jumps is stupid!!!" Lord, anyone who jumps is NOT stupid. We all need to be more considerate around emotional people or people who hide their emotions. Feelings get hurt too easily. As a community, we need to dig deep with people and talk about these past situations. If a person needs help, that doesn't mean they are a crazy out of control psycho. They just need somebody to talk to. Everyone needs to USE SOMEBODY FOR HELP.

If another suicide occurs again, I'm seriously going to jump. But first, I'm going to get help.


Anonymous L.

It's not the trains!

Do you know how many high school kids spend the majority of time at home isolated behind closed doors, sitting in front of a computer screen while their parents are behind another closed door staring at another computer screen? A family dinner is a foreign concept to most of my child's friends. Most of these high school students(and younger) are left to heat up frozen burritos or given unlimited cash to buy their own dinners each night.

School stress is a problem! There are plenty of nights when there is just too much for even a "super-student" to complete. Students also feel compelled to take honors and AP classes as that is the norm at Gunn. They don't have time to relax and reflect.

These suicides are a community problem!!! Everyone can do something to make the situation better.

Gunn Administrators: Stop recognizing and rewarding the "super-students" because most students cannot live up to their achievements and then end up feeling like failures. Start getting to know some of the "invisible" students who do not take AP classes, yet are not discipline issues yet.

Media: Ditto! Stop glorifying the over-achieving super academic and award-winning athlete.

Teachers: Start giving out homework passes. Some teachers do, many still don't. Some nights, a homework pass is what prevents a kid from going over the edge as it is often just impossible to do all the work and get any sleep and stay sane. Also, be flexible with extensions on assignments when there is a reasonable cause. Get to know the quiet, average students, not just the "stars." Grade reasonably. These are teenagers, not doctoral candidates, so adjust your expectations appropriately.

Parents: Get involved in your kids lives whether they like it or not. Teenagers probably won't like it, but too bad. They will know you value them and their well-being. Get to know your kid's friends. Kids often have an easier time opening up to someone else's parent, other than their own. Eat together! So what if your kid doesn't get into a college with major bragging rights. It is not where you they to school, but what they actually do with their lives that counts.

Students: Be friendly and inclusive to all your classmates. Recognize each other's gifts and strengths. Do not make kids who do not take APs feel like losers. Take care of yourself and find balance in your life. Support each other.

Colleges: Stop making it known that you are only looking for students who have taken APs and the hardest classes offered. This encourages many students to take classes they are not academically or developmentally prepared to take. Many students who do not take these classes may still be very successful college students and may have more to offer because they have led more age-appropriate, balanced teen-aged lives.

CalTrain: Keep the crossing well-lit at night and provide reasonable barriers for pedestrians.

My deepest condolences to the Dickens family.
I felt sorrow to see the Gunn administration collectively trashed in some of the posts. Not all teachers are kings and queens of compassion and they come with a variety of teaching styles and values, just like anywhere else. I wondered what some of the "good ones" must feel when reading these posts.
I would like the record to state that I think at least one Gunn Counselor, Bill Christensen does a GREAT job. My daughter is a junior and she's had some challenges in the past 2 years at Gunn, academic and physical/emotional. Mr. C has ALWAYS been there for her and for me when we've reached out (and sometimes when we haven't) - no matter how busy he was. When I asked my daughter which school staff member she felt has impacted her the most, it was Mr. C. Despite the crowding and the worsening ratio of counselors to students, he's been there with advice, compassion and discipline. I just wanted to say a public thank you to Mr. Christensen for the great work you do at Gunn.

dear another parent: agree with everything you say. i wish the palo alto weekly would stop their "athlete of the week" thing. outstanding student athletes should be rewarded by their friends and family, not their local media, and not at the expense of other students.
and I also agree that classmates have a responsibility to take care of each others well being, and to be kinder to one another.
to anyone, especially parents, who wish to understand teen alienation and depression, I highly recommend the book "the perks of being a wallflower" by stephen chbosky. it's a very honest and beautifully written book.

am a parent & friend to students at Gunn

blame (school, environment, and parents) goes nowhere, "talk to me" is the place to go. buy a t-shirt at Gunn & proceeds go to a local counseling center KARA that is an alternative-it's one thing we can do, our kids are grieving and the people they talk to is each other. let's reach out, hold on to one another and hope/pray that this stops. we want a reason, if only these students realized/saw/KNEW how important they are to us.

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I think we parents who care about stopping these suicides should pushed for crossing traffic on this specific railroad track. If we all parents joined hands and not let past people or cars through, eventually it will be closed. What else can we do as a community of parents who care. We will call attention but hopefully by doing this they city parents, district and community will do something about it.
If we decide to watch the tracks how do we communicate, shall we just go and show up. I know now the police is watching most of the time. They have to, especially at night. It seems like is when kids feel worst, or maybe because is dark and lonely. If the police stops watching we parents should take over.

We can blame the trains, the schools, the parents, the religious leaders, the community, ourselves, those whose kids tune out because they find suicide to be commonplace, those who tune in and are angry and ready to accuse anyone of being part of the problem. But ultimately, this does not help.

Let's talk solutions. YES. Yes, a simple positive word. We need to say yes, let each kid know that yes, they are a great kid, and yes they will have an adventurous future, and yes there will be bumps along the road, and yes they will overcome them. "Oh the places you'll go" should be required reading for every class in every grade.

These kids are gone because they lost hope. We need to figure out as a community, school, religion, and most importantly as a parent how to make sure every single one of our community's children feel hope for their own bright future.

Kids, there is nothing wrong with striving to be your best, take 7 AP classes and get into Harvard, or Stanford or whatever. But it has to be your calling. And if it is not, that's fine too. Because you will find the future that is right for you. May be you'll be a gypsy and travel to exotic lands. Or may be you'll live your whole life in Palo Alto, open a shop and sell tacos. May be you'll have eight kids and a beautiful spouse. Dream your future because there IS hope. In fact when there is nothing else there is always hope. You just have to find it.

Just say YES.

-SMSC

I am horrified. Terrified for my 5 year old who is at El Carmelo right now, and petrified for my 4 month old baby boy.

I went to Gunn, back in the 80's, and it was probably as good as a public high school can get. Fun yet challenging, lots of freedom but plenty of responsibility. We studied, and played, and LIVED. I had a balance, got a decent gpa (no AP classes), and went to a very good college, where I also studied hard but had a blast.

I am seriously on the verge of tears right now, thinking I will have to somehow find a way to send my kids to an alternative high school if this is really how it is now...and I don't know how we'll afford it.

Someone mentioned that it would be ridiculous to have high school be about basket weaving. I would rather have my kids become professional basket weavers and be HAPPY then fry their brains on amphetamines to get A's in AP Calculus and throw their bodies on the train tracks anyway.

We are really only in PA because my kids very involved Grandparents are nearby...

Here's to hoping the tide will turn ASAP...or we're out of here : (

Knowing that my child will be at Gunn in 10 years, and being PA resident, I find the suicides very troubling. And I find lack of any information on what actually happened to these kids infuriating. I really want to understand what happened, but my google-fu is not strong enough.

Who were these kids? In PAWeekly, all I get is "they were great kids, just no one knew they were depressed".

I want to know more. Why that particular night? Grades/girlfriends/general blahs?

I'd love to know what our kids are saying. In my childhood, adults lived in a separate world, and never knew the real story about what happened.

That is why, when I saw a post deleted by PAWeekly staff that started:
"Gunn Student: " personally I know lots of kids in my class who talked to me about committing suicide cuz the classes were too hard
I was really mad. That was one post by someone in the trenches, and now it is gone. Please stop the censorship, we need to understand.

And, if there are any other discussion boards where talk about what really happened is going on, post those links.

This the 4th time in 6 months to revisit this topic.

The WHO has clear guidelines on handling suicide contagion,
No pictures
No memorials
Minimal press
many people pointed this out after the 2nd event 6 months ago
The responsible thing to do is to close these threads down ASAP

I cannot figure this out. Why are these kids opting to do this? Last week was spirit week, surley that should have been an up time for most fo the students, but I know how hard social situations can be for young people and rejection can be devastating. Team sports are great but why are students joining and then dropping the sports teams? Who follows up on this when a student decides to forego a team and break with the group? 16 is a hard year, we need to make sure the safety nets are in place for kids that get off track. Prayers for the family and the rest of the students and athletes.

You can probably find discussions among young people about this on facebook. A lot of it is inane, and much of it is unintelligible, so you're pretty much looking for a nugget of gold in a pile of shit.

It's up to you to decide if it's worth the trouble to actually sift through everything with your bare hands.

There are several factors that lead up to a suicide.

So, yes, the notoriety of the Meadow crossing makes it a weird draw. Making it inacessible would probably help. The impulsive nature of suicide means that the victim won't just find another way. So concrete ways of dealing with access to the tracks should be looked at.

And, yes, Gunn is a high-pressure environment. I think that in itself is not disastrous--there are lots of high-pressure environments and some people thrive in them. It does concern me that the high schools are large, overcrowded high-pressure environments. I'd be astonished if the Gunn staff was able to keep track of which of its app. 2,000 students are at-risk.

I don't think Gunn or the schools create at-risk kids--but I do think there's an unhealthy environment here for kids prone to depression--the high expectations, the lack of support, the lack of flexibility--if a kid falls through the cracks, he or she can keep falling.

We give a great deal to our kids here, but in turn we demand a great deal of them without even realizing it, I think.

I think there are specific and unique causes behind each incident--but I think we all suspect that the overall environment isn't emotionally healthy for teenagers here, which is why we talk and fret about it, but don't come to any resolution about it.

Gunn Student,

I'm worried about you. Can you talk to your parents?

gunn parent,

Part of depression is not being able to feel happy--thus, the traditional higher rates of suicide around family holidays like Christmas.

How I wish I could have been a support to the students whose pain was so unbearable they saw no alternative but to give up. To fit in with your peers is the highest priority for a teen - the most loving parents cannot overcome teen's need to belong.

Though I loved Gunn 40+ years ago - I noticed many students spent all their time alone. The solution was to gather the disenfranchised into a group where they were unconditionally accepted as part of group - we ate lunch on the hill across the sidewalk from the 'popular kids' hill. The result was unity among all students.

I urge admin and classmates to reach out for a student who seems isolated. Guarantee they will have a talent and potential that will enrich your lives. Empower them by asking for their help and they will no longer feel invisible.

Eliminate the label 'mental illness' - it separates rather than unifies teens. We all experience the blues in life, give that classmate and student the opportunity to belong and be appreciated for who they are.

If any of these kids have learning challenges, work 10x harder to include them. They have likely felt invisible and ostracized for years.



It

Also poses the question of why this seems to only be happening at Gunn High School. I haven't heard of half as many suicides at any other high school in this area.

I hate the sound of the train. Tonight, the short, minimal blasts of the horns scream volumes.
Please don't be the next kid to do this. Please be the kid that calls a friend or a teacher or a family member or an 800 number or 911.
Please be the kid that makes the front page for saving your own life. Please be the kid that survives this by getting help and can help the rest of us understand, and do a better job at keeping you all alive. Please,please be that kid. We need you here. You are all too precious to lose. Each and everyone of you. All of us grown ups will look for answers, form groups, consult experts, etc, meanwhile you are there, you are living this, you can make a difference a million times faster than any of us can. Please be that kid.

It's the parents. Plain and simple. It is not the school. It is not the church/synagogue. It is not the water polo coach. Get over it folks--it's us. This generation of messed up parents that never went to HYPS (and you know which colleges I mean). The kids are pressured to fulfill unmet dreams of our generation. It is so meaningless. And the truth is, the successful adults we know are the ones that are actually happy--not the moneyed folks that live in McMansions. The adults that are not using alcohol to go to sleep; not sleeping with someone else; not pushing their kids to take "x" number of APs or get MVP on their team or save a country through community service. We live in Silicon Valley and everyone wants to be rich and have no wrinkles and no grey hair on the men; and they/we have a house worthy of Gentry Magazine priced at a million dollars an acre. Our kids are suffering. Suck it up--it's us. I truly hope most of these kids (mine included)reject everything we represent. And don't write back and say it's just me because you know it is you too.

To Paly Pop:

I like your posting very much, especially the following parts (I copied & pasted them here so people can see them one more time):

-----------------------------------------------------------------
My own daughter often feels overwhelmed and unable to complete all of her school work. She's currently being treated by a doctor for an illness brought on by continual stress and fatigue. Last week she had 4 important tests and a composition due on Friday. On Saturday she had SATs, and on Sunday she had to work with a tutor for 2 hours and spend 5-6 hours on the rest of her homework. When was she supposed to relax? I hear other parents talk about their children getting very little sleep, staying up to get it all done, so I know this is fairly typical. (Some parents say this with pride, which I don't understand.) Sure, it's not just a Palo Alto issue, but it is definitely an issue here, and we aren't dealing with it. No one's suggesting getting rid of AP courses, but if we aren't honest with ourselves about the effect of the load on students, we won't understand the amount of stress most teens here feel.


More importantly, are our schools educating the whole student in a way that helps them form their values, think creatively, develop as people and feel good about themselves (not just academically or athletically)? Or is the emphasis way too much on academic performance in a very narrow sense, focusing on the memorization of facts, testing, etc.? Because of this and the never-ending stress, I fear that my daughter has lost a lot of her old enthusiasm for learning and reading in high school; I can only hope that she recovers some of it in college.

---------------------------------------------------------------


If this were just a single case, I wouldn't say anything. Unfortunately, if I remember it right, this is the 5th case
(including the attempted one) of Gunn students within approximately one year. Something is not right if this happens so frequently for a single community.

Yes, we need excellent education in academics. But good academic education does not necessarily mean overwhelming stress. What our high schools should seriously consider is whether or not the "test-oriented education" is a good method/model to teach our kids. For example, for every single week you got 2-3 tests, you're basically under stress almost every day, which possibly suppresses your free thinking, influences your creativity, damage your interest/enthusiasm, and for a long term, you are not actually benefited from it. The "test-oriented education" may make our kids very good in dealing with tests and stress in college (seems to be "successful" in their future academic), but may not be able to nourish them to become a creative person with free thoughts.

Why don't we just have tests for each month? That will be much more reasonable and manageable, and also will give the kids more time to absorb and digest the knowledge. Why do we have to stick with today's model? Give it a try. Having tests for each month may ends up with even better academic results than having test/quiz for every single week.

People can get depressed if they are seriously lack of sleep.

Though this is not even a remote possibility - it would help to understand the situation that these children were in. Was there too much of pressure at home / what were some of the other problems at home .. agreed that every home has some problem or another, it will help the parents understand and deal with similar pressures.

After a week or two, such threads die down and life goes back to normal .. some type of root cause analysis needs to be made public

Will was one of my best friends. I want people to STOP assuming that this had to do with school and academics. IT DIDN'T. I know that because I knew him well enough to know that school wasn't THAT huge of a deal to the point of life or death [to him]. SUICIDES ARE NOT JUST ABOUT STRESS IN SCHOOL ALTHOUGH IT CAN BE VERY STRESSFUL. IT CAN ALSO HUGELY BE ABOUT 'FITTING IN' AND THE WAY THAT STUDENTS TREAT EACH OTHER AND THE THINGS THEY SAY. That has a WAY bigger emotional impact on a person, more so than getting a C or an A on a test. Although the staff at Gunn can give some support, the true support and most valuable way to somehow help the situation is for us [the teenagers/students] to help each other because that is what so many of these poor victims were truly lacking; the feeling of acceptance and support and from their peers, not authoritative figures.

Yellow Brick Road - You're Awesome. Well said!!

Modern American society--with the help of pharmaceutical companies--has created the notion that we must always feel "good." what is good? i have no idea, but i want to feel it. Maybe if i take these pills i will feel good, maybe if i just push myself a little harder in school i will feel good, maybe if i buy myself some new clothes i will feel good.

MAYBE LIFE IS NOT ABOUT FEELING GOOD ALL THE TIME

Spirituality and Serenity.
Know these and you will know true love.

For the first few comments, this has abosolutely nothing to do with the trains. The core of the problem is stress from school and parents, and even this community. To blame trains for this is completely wrong. It is Gunn High School that needs to adress this problem that has killed threee of its students, plus one incominf student. From personal experience, I know that Gunn teachers show no regard for students lives whatsoever. They assign far too much homework, which causes lack of sleep amongst students and are overworking these teenagers. This is a time in our lives when we should be having fun, out with our freinds and enjoying life. Instead, I myself only get to see freinds once a weekend because of homework load in addition to school sports. Also, parents put far too much pressure on these students. I myself have had to give comfort to many students who feel there parents are expecting far too much out of them, and making them feel worse about themselves by comparing them to sibling or other people. When teenagers at Gunn are dying, it makes me look at how one homework assignment isn't as important anymore.

Re: Sharon
> This the 4th time in 6 months to revisit this topic.
> The WHO has clear guidelines on handling suicide contagion,
> No pictures
> No memorials
> Minimal press
> The responsible thing to do is to close these threads down ASAP

I looked up WHO guidelines. The following types of reporting are discouraged:

*Presenting simplistic explanations for suicide.
Engaging in repetitive, ongoing, or excessive reporting of suicide in the news.
Providing sensational coverage of suicide.
Reporting "how-to" descriptions of suicide.
Presenting suicide as a tool for accomplishing certain ends.
Glorifying suicide or persons who commit suicide.
*Focusing on the suicide completer's positive characteristics.

This thread might be touching upon some of these (*). Personally, I think that collectively trying to understand what is happening is valuable.

Will was a great guy and he will be missed. He was lively, and his laughing and joking always made me smile.

Time and place...1957- Wilbur Jr. High School...
A small statured boy named Baines who loved to smile, had a lot of friends in his 7th grade class had an altercation after school. He lost to the bully.
Baines lived across the tracks, across East Meadow. He never finished that walk to home that day, ending his life at the trains crossing.
We missed him terribly.
Dispare is horrible to deal with, especially at such a young age..if only one of us could have been the one to walk home with him that day, he may not have thought of ending his life..it was such a permanant and final decision.
It does not take much or even cost much to smile, to comfort a person in need..to be kind and thoughtful to someone to help make this lifes journey a little safer, simpler and happier. Let us keep trying. We all deserve it..........................
May the darkness be lit up in your darkest hour. Tomorrow will come.
May the friends and family have healing and smile in his rememberance.

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Homework and lectures are the only way to learn. You don't learn by last-minute cramming, you don't learn from the book, and you certainly won't learn if you don't do homework. I should know; twice during my high school career, I stopped doing homework for a class because it didn't matter to my grade. Guess what - my test grades for those classes dropped a good 10%.

Homework is there for a good reason - to review and get down the new material you learned that day. If you don't do homework, you might as well not attend class, since you're going to forget what you did by the next day.

It is 11 PM and my Gunn student son is still working on his homework. I expect the earliest time he can go to sleep tonight would be 2 AM, if I keep asking him to finish homework quickly. I told him that homework is not that high priority and he said that I wanted him to fail. The situation drives my nuts. What is the point to do perfect homework? They are not take-home tests. Do they have to provide high quality homework in order to get perfect scores?

I used to work late into the night for high school homework. Do you know why? Because I wasted all of my time browsing youtube, trawling through facebook, and chatting it up on AIM. You don't think your son/daughter is doing the same thing, because every time you walk by, he's got a word document open? Well, I'll let you in on a little secret - it's called alt+tab.

Now, in college, I've gotten on the ball and I'm doing homework before the night it's due. And guess what? I go to bed at my leisure, because I don't have a looming assignment.

I've got a roommate who still hasn't learned time-management, and guess what? He's up doing homework and pulling all-nighters every couple days.

Ask any Gunner, and you'll soon find out that teachers for every AP class have homework assignments posted months in advance. AP C physics for one, has homework for the WHOLE YEAR posted on the first day of class. Math classes and Science classes usually go by the unit, which operate in monthly cycles. English has reading schedules, and they pass out essay prompts weeks in advance. Most other classes don't have homework, and if they do, it's usually posted for the whole unit.

This isn't journalism here--the Weekly's not writing these posts, so the WHO guidelines don't fit what happens here. These are posts, not news stories.

Blah,

I'm sure you're right that social stuff plays a big part. But I think the competitiveness and high expectations help create an unsupportive social environment. It sounds like students feel isolated--and that's a great way to start feeling depressed.

I still say parents need to be willing to pay for professional help instead of expecting the world to change or hoping someone will notice their child needs someone to talk to. I'm sure lots of families are seeking help but from the sound of these posts, it seems like many people take mental health for granted - until it is too late. Maybe kids should get mental health check-ups.

Ohlonepar! Wow, I missed you!
You tend to make a lot more sense to me than all the other parents/adults.

In response to Gunn Student, who wrote:
"From personal experience, I know that Gunn teachers show no regard for students lives whatsoever. They assign far too much homework, which causes lack of sleep amongst students and are overworking these teenagers. This is a time in our lives when we should be having fun, out with our freinds and enjoying life. Instead, I myself only get to see freinds once a weekend because of homework load in addition to school sports."

Please stop blaming the school and the teachers. The teachers are held accountable for making sure students learn the class curriculum, and for AP (college) level courses, that means college level homework loads. Students -- If you don't want to do that much homework, please don't take AP classes, and certainly don't take 5 or 6 and expect to be able to sleep. Please don't pressure your peers into following suit; the pressure to do more, more, more can come from peer groups just as strongly as from parents. Parents -- if you think your student has too much on their plate, help them look at their quality of life and make the tough decisions that have to be made, such as foregoing sports or not taking as many high level courses. Don't blame the teachers. The one I know care deeply about students well-being, and are only doing their job the best they can.

Of course there is a reason why these children are killing themselves, and I supppose only their peers really know what is going on, but they are afraid to talk about it. What has happened in the home and school environment (from the earliest ages) makes a huge difference. We need to do a better job of assessing student's vunerabilities from the early grades, and focus on intervention way before high school or even jr. High.

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

My heart goes out to the Gunn students, teachers, counselors and more than anyone the principal, Noreen Likins. As a Gunn parent, I can definitely say that there is a lot of pressure at school. But tell me a school, college, work where there is no pressure. Though we as parents are told not to push our children by everyone, please tell me how can this be avoided seeing the competition, not only at Gunn, but other schools too (Cupertino, Fremont??)?

Going to an Ivy League can be a dream, which if the inner strength of the student permits, can be made into a goal. But parents, please don’t live your dreams or pass on your peer pressures on your kids. They have enough of their own. Just support them….they need you. You might not be their best friend, but you are a “friend” who will not move on and go away.

And kids....please, take this life as a gift. There are many who do not have a life like yours. Many live with sickness, poverty, loneliness, deprived of the basics. Feel blessed that you are living in this beautiful community, going to a great school, have friends and family who love you, and more than anything if you are not in their lives....there will be a big vacuum. There is always someone waiting for you somewhere. We, as parents, love you and want the best for you.

It is an extremely hard time for the parents of these lovely children, and my sympathies go out to them. But as a service to the community, it would be important to know what kind of relationship did they have with their child. Did they find the child behaving differently before all this happened? Did they see any signs? I know it is extremely hard to find answers without guilt and sadness, but these are the questions which we as parents are asking ourselves.

It is obvious that Gunn is a very high stress environment. At least one poster blamed Asian students for "raising the bar" on college admissions. But another hit the nail on the head. It's the parents. You set unreal expectations very early in their lives. You start applying the pressure at a very early age.

Soccer practice starting at age 7. Homework in the 2nd grade. Band camp in 5th grade. Summer math camp in middle school. SAT courses in 9th grade. And so on.

Whatever happened to letting kids be kids? Is there shame if your child ends up in the bottom half of the class at a place like Gunn? Why are there 10,000 private college counselors in Palo Alto/Menlo Park who charge a gazillion dollars to get your kids into Stanford or Harvard? Will you be ashamed if your child ends up at SF State or St. Mary's?

Think about the kids at SF or Oakland public schools--the school systems that no white liberals would ever send their kids to--who go through even more stress. They get robbed and beaten regularly, and sometimes killed. But I never see you lifting a finger to help them. You abandoned them a long time ago, to focus your attention on your kids, and now you are paying the price.

Gunn and Palo Alto parents, if you want to know who's responsible for the rotten public schools in your area and throughout the Bay Area, look in the mirror.

Blah is right on. The perception that one fits in with peers is everything to a teen. Parental support is clearly important for every kid, however, teens in high school are transitioning from dependence on family to developing successful interpersonal relationships with classmates. Acknowledgment and respect from teachers and admin is very important; they must go the extra mile to support every student, especially those who seem disenfranchised.

It seems to me PA School Admin considers community adults as the resource to resolve these tragedies. Labels abound, presumptions made - theories tested.

The real solution is with the students themselves, a very creative group of teens who can address the real issues only they experience first hand.

Served on the board of a non-profit addressing these issues - the best symposium we had was designed by the kids for an audience of kids. They excelled beyond any adult forum.

Why not have the students come together to discuss their fears and concerns, develop creative solutions.

Doesn't appear the police, the district, or various experts have been successful. Give the teens the respect and opportunity to resolve what their experiences and challenges are; let the adults listen and learn.

We know nothing, nothing about what was going through this young man's mind. Stop all these speculations about school pressure, AP classes, etc. It is all wild guessing.

I really disagree with this no memorial, brush it all under the rug approach. If people close to him are sad then they should gather, cry together and show the world how an act like this hurts survivors and leaves scars on a community. Maybe someone at risk will see this and realize just how selfish suicide is. It stopped me.

Gunn students are already doing a lot regarding this issue.

For one, there is the ROCK (Reach Out. Care. Know) group that formed at the end of last year. It acts as a peer-support group and currently has 70 members. Gunn alums, I encourage you to contact ROCK because they already have some alums that have signed up to also be mentors.

There's also the Talk to Me Shirts, which have been a great hit with students, raising money for charity and raising awareness about communication.

Before this incident, Gunn was also planning on hosting a workshop in November for students and staff to discuss school climate issues.

It's sad that this happened again, but everyone at Gunn is really trying their best.

I took the SATs back in the 1980s, and looked forward to it. I wanted to see how I would do, and no matter where I ended up at college, I saw it as an adventure in the making. I walked home after the test to await my fate.

Flash forward to 2009 at Gunn HS. I walk past hundreds of sullen, high school students who had just taken the SAT. I see misery etched on their faces. Not a single smile out of hundreds of kids. Long lines of Mercedes, BMW, Lexuses and other expensive imported cars wait to pick up their kids. Kids without parents whip out their cell phones and call someone, play a game or browse the web. What's wrong with this picture?

well personally sometimes i think about suicide when i have finals or have a bad grade in a calss (less than an A) because i know if that grade doesnt improve by the semester i probably wont be able to go to a good college

luckily last yr i got my grades up to straight A's by the semester so hopefully i do it again but chemistry is pretty hard!

i am not that good at dealing with my stress thats why and i get easily stressed i dont know why

i think i care too much maybe thats what the people who committed suicide did too we cared too much about whateverh appened in our life emotional academic social sports whatever it may be we cared too much

To student at gunn--

Talk to a someone who's a rock. that's what they're there for! :) a lot of them have been through what you're going through right now whether it be emotionally/socially/academically, so it would be worth it to talk to them about it and hear their perspective.

Stay strong!

[Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Some commentators might believe that Gunn isn't trying hard enough. My sibling, who is a junior, has been called to see the counselor, who believed she would commit suicide. I know she'd never take her own life after she realized the importance of life after we lost very close family members. The faculty is trying, however, I don't know how much.

Sometimes we need to realize that academics did not take center role in the decision to commit suicide. Honestly, it seems a teenager's life is more difficult than it has ever been.

Gunn Class of '67 makes a great point. Have an open forum where the kids can talk freely and contribute as a whole. Simply having announcements to the school about this issue isn't beneficial.

hi wow its me again

i agree an open forum would be cool!

i think it would be good anonymous or not but have it online or something

and have everyone in the grades discuss stuff and meet people and stuff

it would bea good way to make friends

i dont have as many friends becaues i came here in 9th grade instead of the whole middle school and elem cuz i wasn't in palo alto until 9th grade

so it could also help epople make more friends

friends make deperssion hurt less

Hi Student,

Glad to see you're around. I thought you'd given up on the adults nattering around.

student at gunn,

One of the great things about the American chaos that is the college system is that you get second chances. If you screw up one year, but do well the rest and explain what happened, then a good college will be inclined to take a chance on you.

If you screw up more than one year, you may end up at a less than stellar college or a JC. Do well, and you can transfer to that good college.

Or if you pull it together later, you can go to a good grad school.

Say school isn't for you--there are plenty of people who went to colleges you've never heard of and did very well in life. (Or dropped out or never went) I mean, I can tell you that when Barack Obama went to Occidental, it didn't take great grades or SATs to get in. Obviously, he pulled it together in college because he went to more prestigious schools later.

It's not really a question of caring too much--frankly, you're a teen--caring about things *intensely* is part of the package. What's not happening and needs to be is a sense of perspective. It's something people around here tend to be woefully short of. (The 80-hour-work-weeks that define the start-up mentality here don't combine well with living an emotionally balanced life.)

In other words, at some point you will eff up royally. You will fail. Things will go badly. You will be disappointed. This is life. What's also part of life is getting back up and going on. I say this as someone who did, in fact, really screw up in high school one year--but I was good at some things, so a college took a chance on me and I did well there and I did well in graduate school. I do up and down in life, but I'm glad to be here anyway.

I'm not Sergei Brin, but I'm also not living in the streets. I'm glad to not be one of the 2.3 billion people without indoor plumbing. I sometimes miss college and grad school, but, honestly, I never ever miss high school. I know it can be miserable. Just remember that it will pass and, indeed, you'll forget large chunks of it because you'll care more about other things and people.

Just get through and find some space and time to do something you like part of the time. Think about what makes you happy.

wow that actually helps a lot more than i can show u in these words

i think we should tell all kids things like this

not in random announcements like 'the faculty loves you' or stuff... we know thats kinda BS

i mean like... in a personal way... to know that other people have experienced what we're kinda going through like ups and downs and losing control of things sometimes

anyway you helped me a lot so i guess u should feel good about that at least

i hope that any kid at gunn who is or is not considering you know suicide has someone who can tell them personally the things u just told me because that kind of thing helps the most

not things like 'dont kill urself it makes people sad' or 'the school loves you and the faculty loves you' or whatever... that doesn't help at all... or 'dont blame it on the X blame it on the Y" no one cares what to blame... if we all focused on like being there for each other like in the post above then maybe we wouldn't have as many deaths lie this

Hi student,
this is what happened to me: started at very average undergrad school (90% admittance rate, Brrons rated it competitive), transferred to slightly better school after a year and a half. Academics were not on anyone's mind, but I learned how to program a Mac because I loved it. Could not get a job for a year after graduation, delivered pizza. Got a low-paying coding job for a year, decided to go to grad school, because I liked academia in theory. Really studied hard for the first time since highschool. Got into a good grad school, no scholarship. Worked as a research assistant to pay for grad school. Dropped out when my RA job led to a startup here. Never looked back, left startups to raise family when I was 40.

You never know what will happen, and where the light will shine from. The world is unpredictable, the best college is no guarantee of success. And a not-so-good one just might allow you to discover what you love. Keep your mind open.

Best

Programs and short-term fixes -- such as were proposed after the last tragedy -- are not enough. We should be thinking about how to make the community welcoming and supportive, so that all the kids are helped. There needs to be systemic changes.

How serious is our administration about making such changes? There is research on teen suicide and what kinds of things help kids with suicidal thoughts to avoid acting on them.

With boys, easily available means is a factor in suicide, so yes, in some ways, you can blame the proximity to trains. But undergrounding the trains is a superficial fix (from the standpoint of solving the social/emotional issues for the kids). If you can't remove the means, you CAN take other steps such as IMPROVING COMMUNITY, another important thing that helps both boys and girls to avoid acting on thoughts.

Someone above wrote: " I don't know what high school is now, but 10 years ago, Palo Alto high schools WERE competitive, but they weren't mean spirited- there was community despite the cliques."

Ten years ago, the schools were competitive, but the student bodies were smaller, and there again, research shows that it is easier to maintain a strong community feel in relatively smaller schools, larger schools become more impersonal and bureaucratic.

Our Measure A money right now is going to make our campuses larger still. There are many reasons the district should be discussing the implications of this with the community and whether this is what we want done with our money.

How can we create more community in our schools AND in our town? We should be taking this endeavor more seriously for the sake of all of the kids -- and the adults. Studies also show that stronger community keeps people healthier physically, too.

I suggest the editors of paloaltoonline contact a qualified psychiatrist at Stanford Dept of Psychiatry regarding the publicity of suicides.

They will tell you that hosting threads like this is one of the worst things that you can do.

It is not a matter of free speech, it is a matter of preventing contagion and the death of more young people in Palo Alto.

I graduated from Gunn several years ago. While there, I was lonely, anxiety-ridden and sleep-deprived, yet none of my teachers ever seemed aware that anything was wrong. Had I lived anywhere near the train tracks, I would have been tempted at times. I also knew a Paly student who commited suicide, and never suspected anything. The only real feedback I ever got from teachers was that I should participate more in class...nobody ever seemed to wonder if there was an underlying cause for my periodic difficulties understanding what was going on. I wasn't truant, avoided conflict, and maintained a good gpa, so I stayed beneath the mental health radar. 13 years in Palo Alto schools, and I was never once referred to or seen by a psychologist. In my senior year in college, after consistently running out of time on exams and falling into depression, I was diagnosed with Aspergers, a disorder which has its onset during early childhood. When I started grade school, this disorder was essentially unknown, so I can certainly understand it going unnoticed, but I just think this points to the overall need for more thorough mental health evaluation of students.

My condolences to the victim's family.

Am truly inspired by the teens who've shared some pretty painful stuff in this forum. Do you realize what courage it takes to reach into your gut and disclose your feelings? By doing so you offer hope to others who are less vocal - they are no longer alone. You may well have saved another from giving up. Awesome!

I would be honored to continue this dialog in any forum you choose. Please post any ideas you might have.

It's important that every student recognize their value - and no one need feel left out.

Words are worthless without action, it's necessary to implement a community that welcomes all students without judgment, labels or condemnation.

If you would like support from an old-timer, I'd be honored to help any way I can. Since our non-profit provided outreach and support to kids and families (learning differences et al), some of the strategies we used in our community might be helpful to you.

It's important to recognize that your priorities in life are knowing that with support from each other, the most impossible challenges become manageable,enabling you to thrive in life.

I'm a passionate mom who cares and look forward to supporting your efforts.

Actually, Stanford mental health experts have made recommendations to Palo Alto parents and schools about student stress. There's no question that it's a huge issue and one factor in the student suicides.

Web Link

The students themselves are the experts on what their lives are really like. I think it would be useful to provide a completely anonymous email mailbox, accessible only to students, where they could give their suggestions to all of us, and let us know where the stress and hopelessness are coming from.

My prayers go to your family especially your tenth grade sister. I know you will be happy looking and caring for all of us

My heart goes out to Will's family - I didn't know him, but I recognized him as someone I'd seen around campus before graduating this past year.

Look at how many students and alum have been posting on this forum. Some have had their opinions discredited by others' (parents), and some have been just altogether ignored. In contrast, there was one student who found guidance through posting, which is a great thing to see. I'm not trying to further this blame-game, nor am I trying to act all-knowing, but I think this is too ironic. We need to listen to eachother, talk about things, and voice our appreciation for one another - students and parents alike. We need community, and we need understanding. And for those who post looking for answers on how to help the students, refer back to those students and past-students who have already offered their two cents. Their words should be given more weight, as they know themselves best.

Hi - This is to any students who might be reading this -
If you feel drawn to commit suicide, please just wait one more day. I used to work with a woman whose grandparents had been slaves. They taught her that you can get through "most anything" for one more day. She taught this to her fellow co-workers. It has often helped me in my life.

Please tell your parents that you want to see a therapist. If they can't afford it or can't take you for some reason tell your guidance counselor or another adult. If you told me as one of your friend's moms, I would not stop until you were lined up to see one.

My condolences to Dickens family. Hope your faith will give comfort and strength.
The key issue is certainly communication: between students and parents, between students and teachers, between parents and teachers, and not the least, among the members of the community. This thread provides a forum for communication for the community, where members can communicate about this delicate issue. The benefit is greater than the risk, especially with the good job of the thread moderators (thanks!).
Let's talk to each other. Don't focus privately alone on TV, computer, electronic gadgets etc., but talk to the real life persons next to you. You may save many lives, including yourself!

gunn grad, thank you for that post. the medical community and parents need to step up and watch our children more carefully. mental health should not be assumed and pediatricians should make it their routine to screen for mental health issues whether or not a family history is known.

Webcams at the crossings so police and all of us can monitor these places 24/7.

The high schools should run a speaker series on successful underdogs. Find people who had C-averages or worse yet went on to live full, successful and happy lives. Kids should know that there is more to life than grades and test scores.

Also there have been many more suicides/attempts at this crossing that have not been Gunn students. There were suicides on the tracks in Mountain View and other cities along the peninsula. CalTrain has to take responsibilty for securing those tracks the same way the Golden Gate Bridge did with the barriers. It's not the horns or the speed of the trains. It's these open, accessible tracks. Look at that horrible incident just the other week where a car got stuck in traffic on the tracks and the driver was killed. So it is not just suicides. We do not live in a some remote whistle stop village. This is a highly populated, densely developed region. Open tracks do not belong here.

I thought these were very fascinating articles. I am a former Gunn grad, now a senior at UCLA and i have taken some sociology courses where we discussed this phenomenon.

Web Link
Web Link

I am curious. What is the Weekly's policy on reporting suicide. Have they consulted any journalism ethicists or psychologists at Stanford for example on the proper course of action. I ask this based on the following:

"There is general consensus from these studies that prominent newspaper (or television) coverage of a suicide has the effect of increasing suicide behavior within the readership(viewing) area of the newspaper (network). The magnitude of the increase is related to the "attractiveness" of the individual whose death is being reported and the amount of publicity given to the story. "

Perhaps I am saying this because i am ensconced in a university right now, but I do believe that this issue like most needs to be pursued from an academic perspective that seeks to find the most effective means of dealing with the issue. Now I do also understand that there are certain journalistic obligations to the public (for example) that may be "more important" than the statistical prevention of future suicides--i apologize, that sounded harsh. It becomes a tricky issue of values vs. results (hate speech is still free speech for example).

If i have learned anything from my economics and mathematics education, it is to not run to conclusions or speculate too much. Analyze a problem analytically and don't let emotions or prejudices be the enemy of the sensible.

This is really sad though. I do wish the family well.

[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Just looking at this as preventing suicide "contagion" is superficial and dealing only with trying to suppress a symptom -- a terrible and tragic symptom -- of a larger problem. We need systemic changes to make our schools and communities places where so many kids don't even get to that place in their emotional lives.

My deepest condolences to Dickens family.

We need to look at our community closely and with all available resources (after all we live in this area) do something, beside blaming Cal train.

1) Do an anonymous survey in all PA high schools and ask for professional help to evaluate response. Stanford psychology/psychiatry maybe a good source to turn for help. Let's finally evaluate WHAT actually kids want to say, what bother them the most, where is the area for improvement for all of us - parents, teachers, friends. Otherwise we may only speculate what is good/bad for our kids and continue blaming each other.

2) Do a psychological evaluation for every high schooler (after all we are running vision and hearing tests anyway). I know it' shared at the time of budget cut, but there is always some funds available if planned carefully. After all there is PiE and other resources.

Concerned parent, i completely agree. I am in no way trying to say that things shouldn't be done at the school or withing the city. My main point is that i remember that when i was at Gunn, during my four-year career, i think there was one student suicide on the tracks. Unless i am mistaken, there have been 4 in the last 6 months. Now unless something radical has changed in the lives of Gunn students since then (and maybe something has) it seems to me that on a preliminary basis, suicide contagion should be something very thoroughly investigated. That is not to say that other measures shouldn't be taken.

student at gunn,

Hang in there and don't beat yourself up. People here are so afraid of failing, I think, that they don't know how to discuss it with their kids or reassure them. I think, as a group, adults around here try to *fix* things, rather than teach our kids how to deal with what can't be fixed or be controlled. Break-ups do happen, many dreams don't come true. And it's okay--really.

Another concerned parent,

I really share your concern about the overcrowding. There are various private schools that are very high-pressure academically, but they're small and well-staffed. The teachers and administrators know every single kid and meet with the parents. In Palo Alto, we expect the same kind of performance from our middle-schoolers and high-schoolers, but there's none of that kind of support. I don't care how wonderful a counselor is--you can't keep track of 2,000 kids the way you can of 200. I think the combination of high pressure and large school population is disastrous for a lot of kids. If their home situation falls apart, but the kid it terrified of underperforming in school (my own bad year in high school was the indirect result of family trauma)--it's not surprising that the kid cracks and feels that there's nowhere to go.

If we're going to make extreme demands on our kids, we, in turn, need to give them the tools they need to do this--and part of that is smaller schools. You see this over and over in the charter programs--as well as programs that seek to pull up disadvantaged kids. Over and over, smaller is better.

It drives me crazy that we're building and building, but only to make larger and larger schools. We have the damn property, but we won't use it to create a better (smaller) school environment. Why *not* look at a smaller high-school program at Cubberly? Why not open a smaller school at Garland? (Parental rant mode off)

student at gunn,

If you've waded through that last bit--think about small colleges when you apply. My college was smaller than my high school and I had a lot of time with my professors. I know it's one of the reasons I did much better in college than high school. Personally, I needed that kind of attention at that point to flourish. Some of us are like that.

As much as I would like to discuss this with you all, I have to agree with the notion that this isn't helping anything. As a recent graduate, I think Palo Alto has a ton of stress problems which need to be fixed and discussed, but as for now I vote to take down this forum. Obviously you all have good intentions; but every comment on here, no matter the contents, is making suicide seem a little bit more glorified.

Concerned Paly teen

I hear you. There have been suicides at Paly, two in the same class but two years apart. The siblings of classmates are still in Paly.

I have heard similar things from my students about the fun being taken away. At least two very popular teachers whose classes were fun have been forced to leave.

Each year there is an anonymous survey of students about drug and alcohol use. I suggest that this survey be expanded to ask students about their emotional health.

I don't like the idea of mental health being talked about so much, it may be true but it also may be an exaggeration. Emotional health is much more descriptive of what teens are going through because emotions can change from day to day, one day something goes well and a teen is on cloud nine, but the next day, an unexpected poor grade, an argument with a parent over something fairly trivial or a slight from a friend or crush, can turn a teen's world upside down for a few days. That plus the fact that we are not teaching our kids how to deal with the knocks of life, the fact there will be times of not achieving what they want and the realisation that life is not fair. Give teens a place where they don't have to be competitive, where they can have fun, where they can be themselves and not have to put on a mask.

As for listening, we should do that, but many teens don't even know how to express how they feel. Being available just to give a hug each and every day is a start.

Saddened,

I think there's an issue of suicide contagion here--same place, same school, short period of time.

That said, I don't think it's the result of newspaper coverage. (Keep in mind that this thread is not generated by the newspaper, but by the readers.)

Truth is, the students hear about the suicides by other means and discuss them, mostly, by other means. The virus, as it were, is in the Gunn student body. I think it's telling that the contagion is limited to that group--not the city or the schools as a whole. If this newspaper were the vector, you'd expect to see something a little more wide spread.

One big problem is that the deaths are public--Cal Train is required to report and investigate all deaths on the tracks. Many people live near the tracks and can hear the train stop, the sirens, etc. A number of people have been through the horrendous experience of witnessing them.

The CDC guidelines (and the research on which they're based) assume that newspapers are the main source of disseminating news--this is very much not the case here. It would be much, much easier to deal with if it were.

As it is, a great deal of information *is* deleted here. Enough so, that it's clear that the students talk to one another, text each other, Facebook, etc. and generally know quite a bit more than is ever published here.

I listened to a very interesting radio program the other day on NPR. I don't know the complete name, but it was fascinating... Amanda at Stanford University has put on a play focusing on depression etc for students. She met someone who she admitted she had bi-polar and after that people began to open up with each other. The program has been a great success there. They have produced a show that goes around campus. May I suggest that someone bring this into the PA Schools so that all students can see that the are not stigmatized by feeling depressed, anxious or not fitting the mold.

I welcome everyone to the community vigil this Sunday afternoon, planned by the faith community before yesterday's tragedy and now even more heartbreakingly needed. We will come together, not to speculate or give easy answers, but to mourn, connect, heal, and find hope.

Web Link

Amy Zucker Morgenstern
Parish Minister, Unitarian Universalist Church of Palo Alto

Ohlone par,

I think you're absolutely right...i was more curious about the Weekly's policies because i know that the US doesn't have strict policies regarding the matter.

I was trying to make the damned if you do damned if you don't comment. On the one hand, students need to feel safe to go to a counselor, teacher etc. and have a place to talk. And i would suspect that Gunn has had assemblies, pamphlets, and faculty talk to the students. But on the other hand, i wonder if all of these efforts could be counterproductive in that they perpetuate this contagion. This is the reason that i think it is terribly important to consult experts on suicide and its social repercussions, and i'm sure the administration is doing so. For example, i'm not quite sure what it means to "glorify" suicide. Is it possible that just talking about it or saying "if you need help, seek it out" could glorify suicide. Is this post that i am currently writing glorifying it? I don't know, but i bet there are those that do.

You are very right in that this is an age in which we may have to come to grips with the idea that whatever we do or don't do, students through cell phones and social networks may be the biggest catalysts to a continuation of this phenomenon. I don't mean to be a luddite or anything, but it may be the case that parents may be helpless bystanders. It's an uncomfortable notion, but i wonder if that i something that just needs to be accepted and the only real solution is to wait this thing through.

I wish to make a comment about the overall unfriendliness and competitiveness of many "affluent" places around the country, have we gotten too hostile, narrow minded and suspicious toward others who are not "us", or "me" and way to self-focused on getting ahead in the world.? If there are things to be done, it is again, we need to stress the future of our world rests on people who are generous in spirit, open-minded, inclusive, cooperative, know how to work and play with others, we have to teach ourselves and our children not to put "winning" as the priority in life but being able to share, make sacrifices, bring out the best in others as well as ourselves, the future of our society rests on fair and balanced individuals who can empathize and make sacrifices, and relate well to others; respectful, tactful and responsible. These are the people and the characteristics that will carry us forward as a family, a society and a country and a part of the world.

I had the opportunity to speak with one Gunn student this morning while I was at Happy Donuts. He was very open about some of the stressors he feels. He was also very straight forward to state that those were his own personal stressors, and that he could not speak for all students at Gunn. As we all know, everyone has some burden to bear.

We will never know the specific reasons why each of the four students took their lives - so we should stop guessing, and start intervening. As adults who have thrived with much success, and survived many failures in life, we need to be the ones our students reach out to - whether you like Hillary Clinton or not, whether you are democrat or republican - is irrevelant - but her point "it takes a village to raise kids" is right on. Each of us has it in us, and owes it to this generation of bright, and promising students to encourage them to keep fighting the fight;and the battles regardless of the outcomes. Outcomes and results - positive or negative - are temporary; personal or career successes or rejection - are temporary; a bad day or bad/good grade or bad/good test score - temporary as in 20 years none of it matters - living a life of passion - regardless of whether you get everything you want, or don't quite measure up to your personal goals - is priceless. Taking risks, and learning to accept and digest the results, but keep moving forward is the key to living life to its fullest....with no regrets...You don't need to finish a Harvard education to be "successful"- examples Bill Gates, and our beloved Facebook founder; you can be extremely effective and productive to the world at large with only 6 months at Reed College - Steve Jobs; you can create one of the most successful companies on the planet (Oracle) - as Larry once said, "I am certain my lack of college of education has held me back"; you can be equally happy and "successful" teaching people to read one person at a time; taking care of the elderly; acting for a living; creating and selling art; building your own mom and pop business - the list is endless - simply allow yourself to accident into your passion. Don't be afraid to ask that girl or guy out...and don't take it personally when they say "no"...because one day they might say "yes" or someone better might say "yes". Say "yes" to life no matter if on one given day it gives you apples cores, or lemons as the saying goes...Because the next day, if you just stay in the game it might give you something so great that far exceeds your dreams....We all have ups and downs, but don't be afraid to be vulnerable and take risks...."no" or rejection is not the worse thing that can happen in life - be it from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, the cute girl or guy down the street or in your class, or the job you want...No, can sometimes be the best thing you hear....It just means, something better is around the corner....All entrepreneurs know this to be self evident....Our founding fathers knew this to be true as well...Being afraid is also a part of life...we all feel this at some point...sometimes, on a daily basis...knowing that there are common shared experiences is what makes the difference....and this is what can keep us going...

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This is not about trains folks...all the track protection in the world does not stop someone who is at crossroads in life....the only thing that can potentially help is if the person knows that other people have had "similar" experiences, and they not only survived those experiences, but thrived in life...It is up to us as a community to jump in and help...no experts, psychologists, religious leaders, or other detached professionals can guide us through this...it is all up to each one of us individually, and collectively to pitch in...don't hesitate to talk to and make yourself known to our young students as they are maturing into adulthood...a little engagement and talking can go a long a way...you never no what someone might be dealing with at any given moment, but our positve connections and words can sometimes make the difference, not always, but more times than not....

Cheers - Chris Gaither

This whole issue makes me very angry. My kids, too, stayed up till 5:30 am doing homework. There is no balance in our kids' lives anymore. High school used to be "fun." There is definitely something wrong in this town.

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I am so sorry, my thoughts and prayers go out to the family.

I, too, have a son who experienced depression and suicidal ideation for several years. I know the heartache of trying to find a solution, trying to help a child through the dark woods. It's not easy, nor is it always successful ...from my experience, misperceptions of student depression among teachers and classmates can inflict more agony, also medications don't always improve the situation, and of all things, sometimes psychiatrists only make aspects of the situation worse. That's a sad and tragic truth. Society is not always kind to the most fragile. The kindness starts with each and every one of us.

My heart goes out to this family, and to their son.

Saddened,

Since you're studying sociology, you might be interested in this link:

Web Link

I got interested in what the actual research on which all the recommendations were based. The above study isn't one of them, but one that seems to contradict some of the received knowledge--i.e. that there wasn't a media-contagion effect, but, if anything, a slight *protective* effect. It points out that the older studies were done when suicide *was* more glorified in the media--i.e. the effect of The Sorrows of Young Werther back in the 19th century.

Also, those earlier studies examined the suicide rate immediately after a suicide was reported--i.e. within 30 days. By that measure, what's happened here doesn't fall into the media-is-to-blame framework.

I think the role of a parent has to be between doing-it-all and being a bystander. You can't shelter kids from the real world forever--though, god, do people try. But you do have to teach them how to deal with it on their own.

It would be good to see some new research on how to deal with the issue in the texting/Facebook age.

Look at the size of this blog! So much solitary "participation" in our community. Let's all get off the phone/computer and take a walk with a friend.

Sending warm thoughts to all that are hurting.

Here's a thought: if this particular crossing has become some sort of vortex for student suicides, how about slowing the trains to a crawl when they clear that crossing? Inefficient, perhaps, but kind of simple when you weigh the potential outcomes of doing nothing.

Gunn is too crowded there are more than twice as many students as when i went there
walking around campus between class has a whole different vib

i implore the city counsel to stop approving massive condo and townhouse projects in the gunn district they are ruining the character of palo alto and over filling the schools

we need to re open cubberly

I think "Steve C." offers a reasonable approach to the immediate problem with this particular area.... slow the trains down. It may add a few minutes onto the schedule, but so what.

It is rather regrettable that my comments was censured by Palo Alto Online staff. But I got to try it again.

The pressure is brought upon our students by globalization. Top U.S. schools are accepting more and more international students. Our high school kids are in fact competing with students around the globe.

Globalization also brought into our schools more and more students whose parents grew up in countries where school competitions are brutal. This change in demographics in turn is generating intense pressure on not only their own kids, but all students in our schools.

We have to face this reality. There is no way around it.

My deepest condolences to the parents, family of William. It is hard to believe and live through such news of what has happened. Having gone through it myself, I can understand the many questions that come up continuously. Why? Please contact Kara, they provided much help, if nothing else but to vent, release, and provide a comforting shoulder to lean on. It's what we need now.

Regarding the post by gunn h.s. student '04, a resident of Los Altos, on Oct 20, 2009 at 8:15 am

Your comments are sound -
"Putting the train in the air, under ground, or making a bike path/walkway above the tracks is NOT going to solve the problem!!!
These kids are committing suicide...not accidently getting hit because they are walking across the tracks!!
If we prevent them from doing what they are going to do there -- they will find another place."

"Lets work on SOLVING THE PROBLEM first as to WHY these poor kids are committing suicide! What is troubling them so much that they feel this is the only way out?

Parents? School? Bullies? Depression?"

For the PA community - it's not a time to blame. It's a time for stepping back and taking a real look at what is going on with this situation. Suicide used to be a stigma, and wasn't talked about for fear of it continuing by mere suggestion. Education for survivors, at risk teens and students, support groups would be one of the most useful ways for each of us to progress. The death of these four students would not be in vain if we all took some time to learn how to handle ourselves not only in grief, but in Life.

Stress, depression, lack of self-esteem, bullying, whatever the "last straw" perhaps can be handled in a positive way than blaming another entity.

Being responsible for ourselves and our actions, and responsible for those around us, whether related or not, would make our community a strong environment for all of us to grown. A closer community is a strong community.

Again, my sympathy to the families. There is no rest in peace for those of us surviving the sudden loss.

Michael James' comment is the best thing I have heard yet. Three smaller high schools would be more "personal" than two huge high schools. Of course the school district won't consider it because of the money issue - duh. So more suicides will occur......

Please know that the Palo Alto Medical Foundation (PAMF) is offering free short-term counseling for teens affected by these suicides. Our counselors will see teens whether or not they have insurance that covers behavioral health services and will not charge for these services. Teens or their families can call PAMF at 650-853-2904.

Steve C. from Menlo Park,

the idea to slow down the train at that crossing is a really good idea!

I am a psychotherapist. There is diversity of experience and opinion on this forum: blame school stress, parents, school staff, Caltrain . . . or not. Some said they knew the victims and that their suicides were not caused by school stress or family problems.

The posts I find the most enlightening are the ones that talk about students actual daily lives and concerns. Thet bring to focus what life is really like in Palo Alto and else where. Our kids are getting the message from somewhere that if they are not high achievers they will fail at life. How do you measure happiness? With high grades, excessive wealth and fame? Not necessarily. Happiness is measured by how closely a person's life matches their needs for doing work or academics that interest and have meaning for them, feeling that they are contributing in a positive way, and belong to a community of close family and friends. Also that they are living life with integrity. The message that students who go to community colleges are losers who don't get into University does not foster this value at all. My son went to Paly and the stress was severe. His solution was to graduate two years early. Other families homeschool their kids.

Suicide is impulsive. When assessing suicide, the more lethal a person's chosen method, the higher a suicide risk they are. The train tracks are a convenient, fast, and effective method of suicide. Guarding the train crossings is essential to stopping these impulsive suicides until a longer term solution can be found. They are not likely to 'just find another way' because other ways are not nearly as convenient, fast and effective. Parent guards, go for it!

We need to look not just at the immediate stressors, but at the big picture of our kids' lives. If those kids who took their lives were upset due to biochemical depression, breaking up with a romantic partner or friend, sexual orientation or gender identity issue, bullying, or something non-school stress or family related, the added academic pressure and sleep deprivation, ect., may have exacerbated their stress and overwhelmed their already frayed coping mechanisms. Adolescents also tend to see bad things happening as 'the end of the world, and may think 'it ruined their life'. The are present rather than future focused.

I grew up in Palo Alto and went to Cubberley. Palo Alto was just another liberal University town where my parents bought their home for $21,000. There wasn't the focus on wealth and materialism and high achievement at all costs. We didn't have these suicides then. Cubberley had Cubberley Alternative School and Paly had Apple Pie High. I joined ASC, and the the freedom I had to plan my own curriculum and how I would follow it in a smaller, more close knit school community was my saving grace (with my severe visual problems and undiagnosed learning challenges, it was difficult for me in the regular school setting). One student transfered from Gunn so she could attend ASC. It is too bad our high schools no longer have that option.

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I agree James Hoosac.

What's more, many high school age students from other countries are not given the general education our students are. They specialize in math/science/engineering or humanities at age 14 or so. They get ahead in their chosen concentration and it ups the ante for our children who are taking a diversity of subjects all at the higher level. This is a great source of stress for American high school students.

Furthermore, most of the kids in other countries are not competing with the rest of the world for college spots because the government run universities in these other countries do not want or cannot afford to subsidize the education of American citizens. In addition, many US universities hold spots for students from countries who pay to reserve them. So those students compete against the subset of their countrymen/women who are interested in going abroad.

Our system sets our kids up to compete with the whole world, as James Hoosac said.

I graduated from Gunn this year. I've been talking to several of my friends, some of us who have been suicidal, and I must say, that, the pressure doesn't always come from parents or administrators, but from other students. and, some kids buy into that, but as for me and my friends, we didn't. we actually had problems other than social pressure. And the pressure that is coming from other students, you'd have to spend time around the students to understand that. Another thing, if Palo Alto decides to the train underground, that doesn't make it any better. The train still goes fast... and underground trains are ran by..... ELECTRICITY. hmmm. so i think, what the best thing that can happen, is some one talk to kids, about how there's first of all, nothing to "fit in" to. then either show or tell them, or help them find their own niche: socially, and academically. thats how i got through high school. i couldnt care after a while what other kids said, i had to decide what to do for ME. so lol... i took one AP, and got into my top college. and i love it. but yeah. i think parents and someone influential should show kids that they gotta do their own thing. find what makes them tick.

If a child takes regular lanes instead of honors and APs, is it still rigorous? When do students generally go to sleep if they take no APs (and they are not texting or gaming)? How many hours of schoolwork?

It's school. There's gonna be work, it depends on your teacher and how many classes you're taking. just get to know your child's schedule. but whatever you do, do not decide their classes for them. but do talk about them. and gaming and texting and facebook will happen. so i don't know what time they will go to bed.

Mom,
My daughter doesn't take honors or APs. She seems to have between 1 and 3 hours of homework a night. Occassionally she'll be up till 11 doing work, but frankly, those are the days she's texting and TV watching. She does just fine at school and is engaged and learning lots. She has a lot of time with her friends and doesn't seem to be inappropriately stressed by school work.

This is a competitive and globalized world, but to blame someone's tragic death on that is nonsensical. We cannot shield our kids from reality, and the challenges and opportunities of the rest of the world.

Many have been trying to pin the recent suicides on the notion that somehow there's something terribly wrong with Gunn or its academic environment. In my opinion that is false. There's nothing about the academic and "stress level" of Gunn today, Gunn a few months ago, that is any different than the Gunn of 4 years ago or any recent year. Nothing besides suicide contagion can explain why 4 separate, distinct students chose to tragically end their lives in the same manner over a short period of time. Many other schools across the nation are similar, if not more intense, in academic rigor. The core motivation for depression and suicide still lies with the individual.

It is pointless and counterproductive to try to change the academic environment of Gunn, an endeavor futile in itself. The question is how do we help kids deal with the inevitable stresses, and how do we put up the necessary safeguards to prevent kids from pursuing rash action.

amom: exactly my point. most students at gunn take regular lane classes where the stress level is nothing different from the usual highschool student. people in the higher lane AP's elect to do so, and it's not like its some taboo to change lanes if one feels the pressure's too high.

personally i think access to the rail crossing may seem like an easy solution to a depressed teen's problems. when there's a suicide method that requires no preparation, it's too dangerous to have nothing done about it. sure, determined people will try to kil themselves no matter what, but it's that much harder or gorier to get a gun or a knife, and the location and public nature of a railway-crossing death might also figure in. so i say either slow down the train or put a police car/surveillance camera there, i for one am willing to pay extra taxes

I am a former mid-town resident and raised three sons in Palo Alto. We moved to MA a few years ago with our youngest in 8th grade. Our middle child attended two suicide funerals of friends from Paly before his junior year; this alone was remarkable, but when I think about the collective pain of the past four young people who have lost their lives to suicide and the exponential pain their friends and family's must feel it is almost incomprehensible. There is stress everywhere, but clearly there appears to be a thread of shared unBEARABLE stress that young people are coping with in Palo Alto. Perhaps we need to start looking at a'friends don't let friends go through depression alone' mentality. We seem to be doing a better job with drinking awareness than with suicidal tendency awareness. This should be mandatory classwork staring in perhaps 7th or 8th grade. Please, I don't want to read about any more senseless deaths from this community we love.

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thank you for mentioning ''psych drugs''!!! tghey hava damaged peoples bodies and brains,people whom DIDNT NEED DRUGS, they just needed someone to tell them its okay ,you will be alright! instead of putting all this pressure on people,like the ''mental healtrh'' system does! i know beautiful people who attempted suicide.their lives are gone! the hidden underside of this society is the forcing of dugs ,poisons,, on delicate living beings! thank you for saying that!

Years ago, I was a *very* depressed student, and two of my junior high and high school classmates committed suicide (not by train, by the way!). I could have been one of them. And I don't agree with the psychotherapist who says "suicide is impulsive". I believe many give it a lot of thought - and I believe this is also supported by studies.

At any rate, I HATED high school - and didn't feel much better in college - had trouble there, too, with severe depression. But stuck with it and am today very happy - good job, good friends, things I NEVER thought I'd have. But it took a lot of work and I did reach out for help - almost too late, but I did - way after I finished college. So know that there are others like you - who have been through a lot - and I think this forum is good. People who just want the trains stopped or the forums pulled are very short-sighted, in my opinion. It's like blaming car manufacturers for automobile accidents. Stop making cars! Geez...

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To gunn grad,

I know several PA families who stretched themselves to buy houses here. Coming from very competitive societies, where a 10-pt difference in an exam will mean a future of the elite class vs. subsistence peasantry, they do whatever it takes to push their kids to top colleges.

In the past few years I've also happened to know more and more foreign undergrad students in Stanford, and other universities, some with full or tuition-waver scholarships.

Just today UC Berkeley announced they will admit more out-of-state and foreign students to help make up the budget cuts.

All these factors add pressure to our high school kids. If we don't recognize this fact, we are in self-denial, and will not be able to address the root cause of these tragedies.

When i heard what happened, I was speechless, how? why? really? personally none of my friends have ever talked about suicide, thankfully. My brother graduated class of '06 and there we 2 suicides in his grade. I do not see this problem here at Play, but many of my Gunn friends say that it is really competitive when it comes to courses they take. And i think that ALL students need to realize that it does not matter how hard the course it and just try to have fun, i personally take 4 periods of Media related classes plus 4 core classes. I get stresses at times but i love doing what i do,( my parents never told me what classes to take). And thats what students need to find, what they love to do! get a hobby that keeps you occupied (NON ACADEMIC!) And have fun with it! and for any parent that tells the student what corse to take... BUZZ OFF and give your kids space to LIVE and have FUN. punching in numbers in a calculator, or writing an essay to 5 in the morning is not cool! even though it is a good thing to get in a good college, it still does not guarantee successes in life. (im not saying you should not go to college). But parents need to loosen the leash...

My heart goes out to The Dickens...

James Hoosac makes a valid point. That's the reality here, in many area schools, not just Palo Alto...students are navigating this culture clash of expectations and competition.

My son was in therapy for several years, for a depression that started around the age of 15. I can tell you, many therapists will readily tell you which schools are experiencing the most stress and depression, as indicated by the allocation of student clients seeking therapy from various schools ....and from what I've learned in casual questioning, those schools are characterized by Mr. Hoosac's observation. Why is his an objectionable observation? It's something to consider and work with, not blindly sweep away. There has to be solutions that accommodate all students.

Would be nice if someone did a REAL study, one that included area psychiatrists and therapists, with an anonymous accounting for teen patients, school affiliation, and demographics. We might see some patterns, maybe, and those patterns could then be explored and addressed.

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Until we solve the problem we MUST have a police officer or someone patrolling the intersection where all those tragedies have been happening. We need to stop the suicides, and maybe we cannot solve all the cases, but at least we need to stop kids from their impulses and since this is the talk of town, we need to act fast. Same way they protect the Golden Gate bridge, we need to protect our crossing. That might help. We need much more, but this can be a start. No more deaths at that crossing. PLEASE!!!!

I find it extremely difficult to believe that a Gunn high school student only has 1 - 3 hours of homework daily, unless the student is more intelligent than most other PA students and/or is not seeking the 4.0. My Jordan son has 2-4 hours of homework. Kids work at different speeds, of course, but for the regular student, how much homework is there?

Why are all the parents assuming that these tradgedies have to do with school? What is going on at home? What is going on with friends & enemies? My own experiences in high school lead me to believe that freshmen/sophomores/and students just entering high school do not have the academic pressure that you might think. I think it probably has to do more with relationships...and wanting to fit in....and wondering if you belong anywhere....and not quite knowing how to transition into adulthood...and not feeling like you can talk to someone. Parents, I ask you to examine your relationships with your children. Do you know their friends? Do you accept them? Do you allow your child room for failure? Do you need to be more of a friend? I realize that some parents are doing whatever they can to get their teenager to prepare for adulthood and succeed in life, but please don't forget that we are still talking about teenagers. These are still kids. Don't abandon them. They need you. They need to be allowed to fail. They need to still be kids.

Kids have choices in high school regarding the intensity of their classes. NO ONE has to take hard classes. NO ONE has to take SAT tests. NO ONE is forced to apply to college. Anyone can take a year off, get a job, go to deanzna/foothill (no sat's required).

My son really likes Gunn. He has some fabulous teachers. Some classes are harder than others. Also.. ITS OK TO QUIT A SPORTS TEAM.
If people are "terrified" to send their children to school in Palo Alto, then I suggest you move or go to a private school or homeschool.
As a Gunn parent, I feel sad for the Gunn administration for being raked over the coals.

I don't think it's simply a question of blaming the school. But, basically, every time this has happened--we start hearing from students and parents about Gunn and we're hearing about a pretty grim situation.

While this doesn't explain what happened with the victims, it does tell us that there's a situation at Gunn that makes a lot of people miserable. Miserable enough that people *do* jump to the conclusion that conditions at the school could have been a factor.

Among other things, what we're hearing is that the competition between students is such that it's NOT a kind or gentle place. It's certainly not a place where it's easy to drop the happy face and show weakness. That's what the kids are saying and there's enough brattiness in some of the deleted posts--which essentially say that some kids just aren't tough enough to hack it--that makes me think this is the case.

Year by year, the school has become more crowded and more demanding. And, yes, James Hoosac is getting at an uncomfortable, non-PC fact--there's a cultural clash going on and students (on both sides) are getting crunched.

And while I don't blame the schools, per se--how ABOUT trying to do something real about this--how about thinking creatively about the overcrowding issue instead of shoving more and more students at schools?

How many more victims before we quit pointing fingers in a circle and actually try to change things?

My child does not take AP or honors classes. I know she is less stressed than some of her peers that do. She still struggles to fit sports and music into her life, but does manage to hang out with friends. She still has nights when too many deadlines and tests come crashing down on her at once, and yes there are "melt-downs." My other kids did take advanced, honors, and/or APs with mixed results. Every kid is different and some can handle more, but all three did experience some periods of major academic stress while at Gunn.

I personally do not care about colleges with name recognition. It is more important to find a college with a good fit and not just a name to impress your friends. As an adult, I have almost never been asked where I went to college. Those few who have asked, I usually sum up as a boorish snob who needs to get a life. It's not where you go, it is what you do and how you live that matters.

Kids: You can still get into the right school for you, whether you take APs or not. Just follow your passions, write a great essay about your passions, and get to personally know a teacher who can write a great letter of recommendation for you.

To midtown mom:

With all due respect the point is that no kid *has to go to college,*let alone one with name recognition.
I think that parents push their kids to go to college even if the kid does not want to go.
On the other hand,we are not all created equal. *Some* kids do better naturally than others academically and may have what it takes to go to college, even one with name recognition.
So, whether a child does not go to college, goes to a junior college , or ends up at Princeton, please do not put any of them down (including kids who get all A's and get accepted at an Ivy). Children will rise to the level they should be at. Parents should work on accepting their children for who they are. AND parents need to get their own lives and identities and not live through their child.

Mom,
My regular student does do 1-3 hours of homework a night, is not any brighter than any other student and will definately NOT leave Gunn with a 4.0. I think if you're wanting to get a 4.0 you might need to put in more time.

Moving article .... on SV Moms Blog about this tragedy.....


Web Link

My deepest sympathy goes to the Dickens family and Gunn family. This is yet another difficult situation for all involved. I hope that this trauma does not bring out the Palo Alto crazies who hate teachers and their own lives.

Deepest condolences to the family. My daughter was a friend of his and I also knew him. He was a very sweet, kind guy. It's shocking to hear of his death. I don't know why he would choose to end his life. It's heartbreaking. I do know that kids at these schools are so completely cliquey, if you didn't go to school here since elementary, it's very difficult to find friends. There are a lot of kids in these schools who are very lonely and just want to be included. I find as an adult, the same is true. When new families come to our district, they also have a very hard time finding new friends. What needs to happen is that kids and parents (teach by example) need to open up their cliques and hearts and reach out to new kids and families. You don't know what you've been missing out on. I have heard this from so many new families and kids that I have met, it's crazy. Why is this happening? Depression is not just caused from school pressure. Some of these kids need acceptance from their peers. Not be ignored if they are new, or dress differently, etc. What has happened to people today? What has happened to kindness and compassion toward your fellow man?

If I had to do it over again, I would not send my kid here. The teachers have mostly been kindness itself, bending over backwards to help. The guidance counselor is fantastic. So what's wrong? The atmosphere is soul destroying. But once they have friends, they don't want to leave. We would have had to act freshman year.

Okay, so parents who say Gunn isn't stressful need to get a clue. I'm a junior in only two AP classes and I've pulled three all-nighters ALREADY this year. My parents don't put pressure on me, it's mostly just peer pressure and pressure I put on myself, which would happen wherever I go.

I knew Will and I'm really just distraught that he's gone. But it makes me sort of upset to read a ton of these comments that belittle students and our efforts.

What frustrates me is that everyone seems to be looking for something or someone else to blame. What we all need to realize as a community is that a mindset like that is not going to get us anywhere, and we will still be stuck at square one when another troubled person decides to end their own life. Palo Alto needs to accept that all of these incidents were a result of several different factors, and that we are all to blame.

Please don't blame the Gunn administration or teachers for these suicides, for they don't want to send out or type that letter stating who died and when. I've seen teachers in tears and others unable to teach after these incidents. The teachers aren't giving students excessive amounts of homework because they can, it is because they have no way else to guarantee that everything is covered during the school year. Even then, most teachers that I have encountered are understanding and friendly. They are willing to give out extensions if asked, and willing to postpone tests if there is something going on. (Homecoming Night Rally, these suicides, etc).

Don't blame the school environment either. Most students here are taking challenging classes because they are willing to and want to, not because they are forced to. Furthermore, work levels also correspond with time management. I myself am taking 3 APs, yet I am able to go to bed each night by 11 (earlier if I dont slack and end up on AIM or Facebook). Gunn may be an extremely competitive school, and sometimes it may be almost cuthroat, but what many people don't seem to be able to see is that Gunn is a fairly closeknit community. We do care about each other, and you only need to step on campus to see that. We've formed our own student support groups, run independently of school administration. We've tried to reach out to anyone that needs help, tried to promote communication. We've accepted the organizations that have tried to help us, tried to repay them with fundraisers on their behalf.

The thing is, if anyone knew the answer to all of these problems, then we would be having this conversation. No one knows exactly what to do, so arguing at a time like this is not the right thing to do, and it borders on stupid. I've lost good friends and classmates over the last few months, and I don't want to lose anymore. Please stop arguing so we can try and find a viable solution.

PS: to Palo Alto Online, please don't sensor any of the comments unless they're obscene and over the top. This topic is promoting discussion, and thats what this community needs.

hi its me again just to address a few things posted since last time

1) i agree that the sizes of school is too big. personally i came to gunn in 9th grade and never lived in palo alto before so i ahd no friends. i am still making friends but i only know about 50-80 gunn people out of the 2000... maybe it's because i'm not popular but who knows i was pretty popular at my old school it's just it was a lot smaller

2) webcams and police and barricades wont do anything... we always have police there who harrass me when I cross and then they go away after a few weeks and then someone else commits suicide, i think it's pretty obvious that the city puts them there to make a statement that 'oh we recognize something happeend but they're going to leave in a week anyways'

3) pressure does not always come from parents but sometimes it does
two examples are these: i went to a very small private school before i came to gunn and was a high performer there... my parents had high expectations of the school so now that im in HS they expect me to do pretty much perfectly... yet here i am in sophomore year with 2 B+s in the quarter (chem H and english)...
also i'm afraid if i dont get good grades i wont be able to go to a good college and get a job that pays well so i can live a life in palo alto too with such expensive stuff you know... if you go on college websites and see how competetive it is... like stanford i saw people on the website asking if they could get in with straight A's in 10 AP classes and they did fundraisers and 5 clubs with leader position and 3 varsity sports and people replied saying 'lol no u probably won't get in' i mean if they can't get in to those schools how can i even have a chance... it just makes me scared to get bad grades and it makes me pressured to do psorts and clubs im not that interesting in ...

4) another thing i noticed abuot the gunn community is at least in my grade they didn't reach out to me that much, not like i expected them to all go 'HI LETS BE BEST FRIENDS' but when i try to initiate conversation and join friend groups (or cliques) it's difficult... it makes it very hard for new people to make any friends at all as if i had to be here since kingergarden to have any friends although this is a generalization cuz there are lots of friends i have at gunn too

5) the "oen to 3 hours of homework' thing is for people who are not that strong in academics and like otehr things... I have at leasts 5 hrs of homework usually and im only a sophomore with no AP classes just honors classes, but i try to maintain a 4.0 so i guess its different

6) the person saying 'you can just switch to easier clasess ' and 'you do not ened to take hard classes' you have the wrong point of view see i could get As in normal classes very easily and im sure many gunn students could as well but the point is we are trying ot take hard classes cuz the bar to get into colleges that are good and will secure finiancial future is getting higher and higher i mean a few years ago it was like you need 5 APs then 7 then 10 i mean who knows how many you need to take now to get into a college why am i taking college level classes in high school anyway i dont even know

thank you for reading

Hey kid. This is just conjecture, but I believe that at your rate, you're pretty much guaranteed to get into a UC (which is pretty good IMHO). I assume you're in trig/analyt (Having an A there is pretty good), and being in Chem H and managing an B+ is already pretty good. I'm definitely seeing UCSD, UCLA, or Berkeley in your future.

Stanford only takes legacy applicants, people who "donate" lots of money, or Bill Gates 2.0

OhlonePar,

What great comments, all. You are a good egg.

Gunn junior,

You're right that in the process of making sense of this tragedy, the amount of work students are asked to do is not given enough credit or fully appreciated, although it may just be expressed in the term stress - which is much talked about and recognized. I think parents know how hard it is, and we can be as much victims of the system as the students, very hard for us to stop the treadmill.

Ohlone Par said

"If we're going to make extreme demands on our kids, we, in turn, need to give them the tools they need to do this.."

I'd like to hear what the schools are identifying as the stressors, and hope they are not putting it all on mental health issues. Asking the kids to figure this one out is also unfair when they are busy enough.

My heart goes out to this family and our community. This is so tragic and senseless. As a mother of two elementary school aged girls, I fear for middle and high school. This town seems like a pressure cooker; from the hyper competitive parents, to the expectations that our children are the best and brightest. I've got news for you! Not all our children are heading to Stanford, Harvard and the Ivy's. We shouldn't have these expectations!

Let's just try and be honest here! Palo Alto is one of the best places to live! We are multicultural, come from all over the world. many are uber-successes and the weather can't be beat. But we also have expectations and the mentality to win and be the BEST. We can't all be number one!

We need to look at the way we treat each other and our children. Stop putting unrealistic expectations on our children. Average is FINE. Happiness... well, that is priceless. How do we get there? How do we support one another? How can we be good friends and community members? Isn't that what we should be discussing?

You say average is fine?
Average is a C in high school
A B is acceptable(if its AP) but a C is just wrong.

I just wanted to echo the comments of Ohlone parent and some others.
YES! It is possible to have a successful, productive life if you do not initially get into the college of your choice. There are SO many options! I started at a Jr college, transferred to an excellent university and then went to a very well-known medical school. And do you know what? Nobody knows (or cares) that I started out in Jr college! I am positive, in fact, that I got a better education that way.

I have told my own kids that finding something you love to do is WAY more important than getting into a big-name school. There are lots of different paths to the goal of a happy, productive life. I hope you are hearing this from your parents too. If not, I hope you can plant that message firmly in your own brains.

Also, if your peers aren't treating you right, just hang in there. They are probably just immature and insecure. Most of them will grow out of it and actually become nice people someday. The people you meet in just about any other phase of your life will probably be way nicer and more interesting. HIGH SCHOOL IS NOT REAL LIFE! Just get through it safely, please! I wish I could hug you all and help you through this period of your lives....please find someone who will!

We know high school isn't real life. But the stress from home as well as school is real. The isolation is real. The bullying is real. The depression is so real.
I think you either understand why this is happening or you don' t. I think it's so obvious, but there's no way to explain it because it can't be compared to anything. Like what? Imagine the worst day of your life over and over again. Life is hell and there's no way to change it except to leave it. You either get it or you don't

Thank you Gunn Senior!! Blaming Gunn Admin or the teachers is not fair or productive--these losses have devastated the teachers too. Gunn teachers have wept with their students and agonized over how to make a difference, they care about their students!

If we could listen more, communicate better and hopefully connect with each student in a personal way. This should be the focus.

Students, how do we reach you? What can we do...what would be helpful?

Why does everyone think that by putting their solution up here, it will make a difference? Granted there are some great comments on here that pass great wisdom down to us students still learning and growing. However, so many of these comments are just people whining, coming up with ridiculous solutions. If you have a logical solution take it somewhere where it can be put into action, not on this crap. To be honest so many people are running out of answers because they are being realistic and seeing how complicated this issue is. Stop putting the blame on all these people, or Gunn because they are doing more than you are. There is no simple solution. We can start by supporting each other, and build a stronger community than what I think we already have. Start with yourself, and go out of your way to help people, be friendly.

In this time and in this place, many of us find we have lost our extended families, other adults in our lives that are not our parents, who we can talk freely and easily to. These people offer perspective we are lacking, whether we are a kid facing school or peer issues or an adult going through divorce.

We have to make that important structure from where we can find it because it is indispensable to growing up and staying healthy. Kids, talk to your friends' parents. Parents, talk to your kids' friends. Teachers, keep talking to your students. Neighbors, stop what you are doing and talk to your neighbors. Everyone, spend ten more minutes each day talking to someone in your community about whatever is on their mind.

This forum is a good start. Keep talking. You are not alone.

-SMSC

Regarding this tragedy, it is important to get the facts. With so many in such a short period of time there is a window of opportunity for the adults to learn. I hope experts are interviewing the families and friends to learn what is triggering this trend.

I do also believe that the tracks are too exposured and make it too easy for this act. We are constantly told that teens do not have the frontal lobe of the brain completely developed so their judgement can be immature. This is one of the reasons for risky behavior. It is too easy to be spontaneous, if the person is not thinking clearly. Yes, slowing the trains down could help. And start the warning signs sooner. As an adult, I dislike those tracks!!

I am a strong believer that we as adults must model a honest community of caring and love so as our teens develop they know that those around them are there for them and care. Everyone can get depressed from time to time. As a society we have evolved to want perfection in everyting around us. As humans we can never be perfect so it is up to us as adults to lighten up! We all have tough times and through experiences we learn "it will be okay."

I believe the school is working to support students. Why did this student quite water polo? Was this a sign that there was an issue?...I wonder if it would help to bring all of the students at Gunn into the auditorium with teachers, administrators, several parents...and communicate that this is not acceptable behavior (I am not an expert, or trying to sound harsh, but just wonder if they need to hear a firm boundary), we love each of you, you have a whole life ahead and so much to offer your family and communities....etc.

Even one life is too much to loss like this...life on this earth is brief enough without such a tragic act. Anyone that can be numb or allow their children to be numb when another life is loss is very sad to me. We need more compassion in this world!! We need to teach our children to care about their lives and that of their neighbors.

My warmest heart goes out to each of us!!!

can someone please make us a general discussion forum for the whole school like inclass

Reading about the pressure-cooker high school environment described in some posts (due in part to the desperate competition for a scarce spot in one or two coveted schools) this book came to mind:

Colleges That Change Lives: 40 Schools You Should Know About Even If You're Not a Straight-A Student (Paperback)
by Loren Pope (Author)

A friend used it to research schools and found it revolutionized her approach.

Peace to all in Palo Alto.

Dear student-I know these things are real. I did not mean to imply otherwise. I just mean that it is TEMPORARY. The rest of your life can be so great, if you can just slog through this part.
I am sorry you are feeling pressure at home. Please talk to someone about this. Perhaps your parents don't realize that they are coming off this way. If they are clueless (and we parents certainly can be) please talk to someone else, a teacher, a counselor, aunt, uncle, your doctor, anyone. I wish I could talk to you myself! Please hang on and find some help. Think of someone you care about and hang on for them, until you can hang on for yourself.

There needs to be an investigation at the school to see what the real problem is. They need to try to find a link between all of these suicides. I do not think that anyone knows the real reason why any of the suicides have occurred. We cannot assume peer pressure or the pressure of getting into the top schools and taking the best classes. And if anyone thinks that you have to take the best classes, you are wrong. There are many people that succeed in life without taking any AP classes or getting into the best schools. Now matter how bad a day gets people have to remember that the best days are always ahead.

Gunn student- most of us are posting our feeble 'solutions' here because we care desperately about you kids and don't know of any other way to reach out to you. Many of us have had these feelings ourselves in the past and know that they will pass, perhaps with counseling, perhaps with medications, perhaps just with time.
If we could hold on to each of you that are having these hard times, we would do it; night and day until you get past this. But we can't. So we post messages of hope or rail against the trains or schools or whatever.
If you know of anything more constructive that we, as a community, can do, please tell us. We do not want to lose another precious young life in this senseless way.

To the student of the Gunn High school community:
Life is not hell! It's wonderful! High school is real. It should be real fun and lots of work---like real life is! The stress is there but should not be overwelming. Talk with friends, parents, parents of friends, the dog, a tree, anyone. The worst day of your life is alway better than no life. Please talk to someone-- We all want to help.

To the Gunn Senior: Thank you for your comments--I hope everyone here thinks about your statements- thank you for you honesty
We need to listen to the kids

Thanks concerned parent. I agree with you in that I hope the powers that be are not putting this all on 'mental health' issues. We can't forget about the natural fight or flight response. Put a healthy person in a stressful environment and many things can happen.

Schools/teachers/parents need to own the fact that there is a pressure cooker environment for these children. I think we - and I am a teacher - need to get over thinking of AP's, high test scores, etc. as status symbols. They are traps and we are talking about *children* - not people equipped to make adult decisions.

"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other" - Mother Teresa

well honestly i dont think its as much about the status symbol of AP and high test scores as much as wanting to get into a high well known college because it's so competitive nowadays

What we really need is a psychology at the railroad tracks 24hours a day 7 hours a week. Police will not stop more suicidals, students who want to end their lives will wait for them to leave. A sign saying There is help like the ones they have posted at the tracks, will not help either. The professional help needs to be there so these confused and sad students get the help at the right time. I think I finally came with the right idea. Last night I was not able to sleep. There is so much pain on me because we are loosing more and more students and we really have done nothing. I attended the meeting today at Cubberly, but it was not what I expected. I whish we could have a meeting at Gunn high school with administrators and brainstorm at what are we really going to do to stop this. We cannot just attend meetings like today's, we heard the wonderful students talking about their school experiences. However they are not professionals and can not have answers. I was disappointed we left without knowing what the school, the city and the parents are going to do in order to really help our children. It seems like we are waiting for another tragedy to happen. How sad!

Thanks students for posting here, it helps to hear your different opinions. It is important for us grown ups to know what your life is like. I hope things get better for all of us. I do not know who you are, but I do care about all of you, and I wish I had big arms to hug you and comfort you when you need it. Please hang in there and listen to each others, my children might need you, be kind to everyone. Love a worry parent.

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To the student who is feeling stressed, sad, no way around, pls remember:

Count your blessings!!! Think about the kids who live in wars, can't go to school, lost their parents, have cancers. The United States is a country that so long as you are willing to work,
you can make a living. You don't have to go to the top colleges to get a good life. In fact, a lot of the most successful men/women don't have very high education. I always tell my kids,
look at our gardeners and clean lady, they are pretty happy because they are willing to work hard and they are honest people. I am sure everyone from Gunn High/Palo Alto High will do
better than them. Just enjoy learning, engjoy your relationship with your family and make some friends with nice people by being nice yourself. Of course, do your best to learn without sacrificing your health and spirit.

May god give peace to all who are struggling!

What we need to stop is not the people form committing suicide but stop people from WANTING to commit suicide. once they have reached the point that they feel suicide is the only option it is almost to late.

i don't think events from the past six months had anything to do with academic pressure or grades. all seem isolated to those individuals as far as we know. most parents seem misinformed here. yeah there's sleep depravation, but we're used to it, and have been for the last ten years going through elementary and middle schools here. the teachers arent on our cases either as some seem to suggest. i have friends in saratoga and cupertino, that's where REAL pressure is, gunn falls pale in comparison to what those students go through. it's the access to railroad tracks, isnt anyone listening?????

Gunn Parent, what you are saying there, in my opinion, is NOT based on any kind of reality, that's conjecture and your opinionated opinion, quite frankly.

Obviously, there is something very wrong going on here.

Did anyone think that maybe it is a cumulative situation here?

For one, it is crazy beyond belief to me that students have hours of homework every single night. They need to be able to be children and live life, again my humble opinion.

The world is going to hell in a handbasket, 9/11, terrorism, world instability, financial ruin in the US due to greed, and we are pressuring our children to succedd beyond these failures? Talk about putting pressure.

This society is not sympathetic and it should be. These kids have huge uncertainty in this world, and we heap more and more pressure to succeed in such an uncertain world that they don't even know they can trust?

Turn the TV off, turn off the computers at dinner time, go on trips, see nature, see the world and stop living in a bubble of "we are it", we aren't, the world doesn't revolve around Palo Alto. People are starving and dying every day. We have a big imbalance here and the symptoms are that kids are taking themselves out because its all too overwhelming.

Simplicity in life is the biggest blessing you can give.

Blah is right. Do not assume there are no students at Gunn bullying and actively trying to tear down the self esteem of other students; I've heard (and continue to hear) a lot about it, from several students. An unhealthy peer environment is not conducive to concentrating on learning in the classrooms. It seems no effort is spent by the school on encouraging students to simply respect others.

Also, my child already gets too much homework as a Gunn Freshman - no AP's are involved. This child does not waste time with videogames, or spend many hours socializing outside of class (those are saved for weekends), and yet is very often doing homework well past midnight. What on Earth will happen in the higher grades???

[Portion removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]

Hours of homework every single night is par for a high school student and expected. Up past midnight is too much work for a teenager. They need their sleep while they are growing. Sleep deprivation alone can lead to depression.

The school board should regulate homework loads and change winter break so exams are before the break. Otherwise students cannot totally relax on winter break, knowing everyone else is studying. Most on the school board are followers though, so this would NEVER occur.

I do think about kids who live in poverty and war. You don't know the guilt that comes with knowing you have a good life and not being able to fully appreciate it. I would trade.
Last June, someone commented that suicide is selfish because it is putting yoour pain above the pain of others. I was so mad. Maybe it is selfish. So doesn't that mean keeping your problems to yourself make you selfless?

I personally think ohlonepar best gets how students feel and how parents feel.

This thread is going in circles.

Homework load is inversely proportional to how hard the class is. I remember in 8th grade, I was assigned pages upon pages of homework for math and science.

In AP C physics, I had on average 3 or 4 problems for homework per day. I heard from a few friends in AP econ that there was literally no homework.

It's my belief that lower level classes tend to give more homework to drill all of the basics into your head, whereas the higher-level classes tend to want you to be well-versed in a few things

I agree with Student: Those who say suicide is selfish are selfish people. Suicidals are so depressed that they just want to leave. To say that they should stay on Earth just to please others makes no sense to the suicidal.

Also, of course I'll talk to trees.

Student, go to sleep - it's 12:40 AM.

Mom, go to sleep, it's past your bedtime.

Student, I am a SAHM - I can be brain-dead manana and be fine. You have to be alert for class or you'll miss something.

actually it makes sense to me...

Real men don't need sleep. We just wait. Like hunters.

Teacher,

Thanks for posting. I agree.

Student at Gunn,

You're doing well enough to get into a good college. There are a lot of good colleges out there. Getting a couple of B+ won't knock you out of the running. A lot of college is what you make of it--and after that what you make of life. Basically, a star college gives you an advantage of a few years, but it evens out. The most successful person in my immediate circle has a BA from a state school. I know several semi-disasters with degrees (grad and undergrad) from Stanford. I love them all, but while the star college may get your foot in a few doors earlier, it does less than you think in many fields.

To the students who say it's not the schools, it's not the parents that it's the kids themselves putting pressure on themselves to take hard classes--I'm going to be very honest:

We parents don't have to directly pressure you to make you feel that you should take those courses. You've been trying to live up to our implicit expectations all your lives--more than many of us often realize. As a parent, it's actually a bit frightening to realize how strong a hold you have on your child and how much even the angriest teenager doesn't want to disappoint you.

Most, possibly all, of you have ambitious, successful parents--and you want to measure up to them. Many of them are also highly anxious about maintaining that success.

All of that gets passed down and incorporated into your expectations of yourself and--this is key--how you think the world operates. The adult community here tends to have a higher than normal portion of ambitious, driven single-minded and anxious people. And we breed similar kids.

The problem with a place like Gunn is that you pile all of that together with a situation where it feels like more and more people are competing for less and less--well, it does mean that school, where you spend much of your time, is highly stressful. That same competition also means that there's more cliquishness, more us v. them.

I understand it, but it's a vicious circle. Why post here about any of it? Well, to plant a few seeds, to get people to think about a few things, or look at things differently. To really listen sometimes.

Hahaha two different students.

I guess my comments went over everyone's heads...and were misinterpreted. Read between the lines.

Hey, I think we are on to something here. There should be an online help resource for our students. It is much easier to reach out for help through texting rather than by phone. PiE, care to donate funds for this? Counselors can even work from their homes.

Wow, do you have a student from gunn radar or what?
Grades, school, and college don't matter. Depressed students have trouble caring for academics.

I'm gonna be honest here - I think Gunn has too many requirements. 4 years of english? That took time away from the classes I wanted to take. 3.5 years of history/social-studies also took a large chunk out of my time.

There were prerequisites out the ass for classes like AP C Physics and Biology, and jumping ahead is neigh impossible unless you want to jump to a class you're more than qualified to take (meaning you know all of the material before taking it).

There were so many classes I wanted to take - AP Stat, AP comp sci, Astronomy, Biotech, Cooking, Auto... and yet with only 28 class slots, I couldn't take nearly as much as I wanted. With English x 4, History x 4, Art reqs, PE, and (often multiple) prereqs for every class I wanted, I could only get a couple of the classes I wanted by senior year.

Most seniors are rolling double-preps. In my senior year, I'm hurrying across campus to class in the 5 minute passing periods like I'm a freshman or something. Down with prereqs and lower the number of needed classes

Also, just a note, the lunches at Gunn suck, cost too much, and make me want to rip my tongue out.

OK, here we go, a help chat room for teenagers, based out of San Mateo County: http://www.onyourmind.net

Agree, parents should understand that if their children are not happy, it is difficult to do well academically.

Student, it is 1:00 AM now. Quit hunting.

Over and out.

Student,

(you can figure out which one), I know, it's all very well to keep telling yourself that other people have it worse so why feel bad?

But pain is pain and depression is a nasty thing. You don't need to be lectured on how you shouldn't be depressed--talk about people trying to fit you into a box. You feel what you feel and the situation you describe would depress me.

I just wish you felt better.

Just as a side note, some delicious deserts or stuff would really make anyone's day better. If I treat my girlfriend to a cup of PMT or an ice cream, her face glows like the sun.

Yet all we've got are "baked lays," "fruit juice" and "power drinks." Disgusting.

I can't wait for college, where I can get GOOD FOOD.

Damn, don't you guys learn to cook? To this day, I make great cookies because my mother bought these just awful cardboardy things. It was a question of self-defense.

Take a baking break.

G'night

I'll start cooking when there are stoves I can use at Gunn.

Right now, I can bring leftovers and either eat them cold or microwave them (in dirty mirowaves), or I can get food from the food court. I can also just skip lunch, which I often do.

Oh yeah, I'd also need a fridge to store ingredients.

Seriously though, cooking at school won't work.

Student, what a humorous, intelligent, and caring person you are. I hope your parents appreciate you. They may not show it and be embroiled in their own problems, but all parents love their children - just many cannot show it. Please don't skip lunch.

OK, 1:16AM. I'm off for sure.

There were 3-4 Paly suicides between 1988-1991. One kid took his life on the train tracks next to school. Hence, this has been going on in Palo Alto for a while.

I personally was extremely depressed while attending this school. The social dynamics of this school are very hard to crack. You pretty much need to be a cleansingbag to have a social life and said cleansingbags make life hard for the average kid. One just needs to look at yearbook photos to see this phenonemon. Pictures of cleansingbags in cleansingbag poses, doing cleansingbag things.

I have discovered that the kids who were stepped on at Paly tend to be the most successful 20 years later. The cleansingbags tend to only become successful with help from family connections, or end up in cleansingbag positions that amount to no social gain, ie Facebook executives and marketing vps.

i also think it would not be worth it to underground trains. because if soemone is going to commit suicide. Trust me that would not even be a challenge for a suicider

Bob, what the heck is the definition of "cleansingbag"? A sociable person? What's wrong with that? Practicing for office politics.

Too difficult to block access to trains. There is also 101 and 280 to run onto if the trains are blocked.

The school board and Superintendent needs to wake up and help the children. But neither have the leadership skills. Much easier for them to turn their heads. Plus, they have Ivy League degrees so they think it is fine to study all the time.

Sarah,

I noticed your comments, and definitely agree with

"For one, it is crazy beyond belief to me that students have hours of homework every single night. They need to be able to be children and live life, again my humble opinion."

Teacher,

the powers that be are apparently leaving it all to mental health issues, and from a Post article even "peer-to-peer" counseling? That means not only are normal people being put into pressure cookers, but now they will learn how to counsel each other, as the heat remains at the same level.

Students,

You have named several things that can be done to change this situation

Get students at Gunn some decent affordable food at lunch, Paly has T&C.

Overhaul the homework and requirement systems, one size cannot possibly fit all, has anyone done the Math for some of these loads? WHere is the programmer that can come up with a system that counts all the assigned HW by course (extra weight to any coloring projects), and whips out a reality check notice. Parents should be asked to sign a document saying - do you realize your student is doing an obscene amount of work? Or is the problem that some kids are having to learn to write all over again because they never did in the earlier grades?


from student
"I'm gonna be honest here - I think Gunn has too many requirements. 4 years of english? That took time away from the classes I wanted to take. 3.5 years of history/social-studies also took a large chunk out of my time.

There were prerequisites out the ass for classes like AP C Physics and Biology, and jumping ahead is neigh impossible unless you want to jump to a class you're more than qualified to take (meaning you know all of the material before taking it)."

so

why are these kids not able to qualify? for those of us that have no kids in HS yet, what is the rude awakening we are heading into?

or is this true, from Stanford?

Homework load is inversely proportional to how hard the class is. I remember in 8th grade, I was assigned pages upon pages of homework for math and science.

In AP C physics, I had on average 3 or 4 problems for homework per day. I heard from a few friends in AP econ that there was literally no homework.

It's my belief that lower level classes tend to give more homework to drill all of the basics into your head, whereas the higher-level classes tend to want you to be well-versed in a few things

a great quote from student

"What we need to stop is not the people form committing suicide but stop people from WANTING to commit suicide. once they have reached the point that they feel suicide is the only option it is almost to late."


and for anyone who has been under stress, and has a ton of work in front of them, does it really help to just say "take it easy" ?

Ohlone PAr has it dead on that smaller schools would help to make room for getting real help to kids, and not this pack of sardines approach,

but since that may never happen, the pressure must be on the people that run the schools and not the kids or parents to make sure kids are not drowning in work.

Sleep deprivation can cause depression. After reading all the comments about long hours of homrwork, I think the school board should conduct a sleep deprivation study at these two high schools. Teenagers need a lot of sleep. What is so important in these classes that a kid has to study past midnight ? This is high school. Why all the emphasis on advanced study of multiple subjects when the kids may never use these subjects again? Save the advanced study for college. What about sports, music, drama or even a part-time job after school? This young man recently dropped playing water polo. Maybe the demands of that rose to collegiac levels too. Expectations are too high for the people living in only the second decade of their lives.

All of us want to help our teens, but recognize each teenager is unique, has his/her own issue, to generalize the problem won't help to solve the issue. As the parent of two Gunn students and one JLSer, I'd like to share our experience in working with our kids, hopefully, it will provide some help to others.

All three of our kids are doing well academically in school, the oldest one is a senior, she is ranked in top 4th, and her brothers are doing just as well academically. All of them spent a lot of time on sports, music, and other after-school activities. They had stress from each of those activities from time to time, but those DOWN time is very few, compare to the UP time when they really enjoy their activities, and the results they achieved.

When we talked to our kids, they all told us that the high school are much easier than they expected, because they all heard the 'horrible' story about 'stay up all night' for home work while they were in middle school. We sat down with our kids once a while, or whenever they appears/complains about 'overloaded', all we did was to go over their schedule and the work/activity load, each time we came to the same conclusion that they can handle all of those work rather easily, the key is the time-management. I have a senior, a sopho, and a 8th grade, so far, only the senior had to worked past midnight a couple times in his entire high school career, all of them go to bed around 10:30pm, get up before 7:00am. Yes, they do have their life outside of the school, as a matter of fact, all of them are invoking in the student government body, participate the community service, playing rather serious sports, and doing some music as well. They hang out with their friends often, especially the weekend.

Some might say that maybe your kids are smarter, but knowing our kids and their friends, I can assure you that they are all just average kids, none of them can be called 'genius'. From what they told us that the problem with many of their peers is the 'bad' time management, they often spent too much time hang around after school, play computer/video games, before they start working on the homework in late night. I'm not saying this is what happens for all the teens, but based on what we see from our kids, and their feedback, we think there is a lot of truth to this.

I think the teens really need a lot of help from their parents at this stage of their life, especially the help on better managing their schedule. Stress is unavoidable in high school, that's the last stop to prepare your teens to face the real life. The important thing is to teach them how to handle it.

I make lunch for my child every single day. I want to do this. He does tons of chores and schoolwork and is not spoiled.
I agree the food at Gunn is not great and according to my senior the lines are too long and not enough time to eat it.

We, of a certain age, have created a world in which our children do not want to live. When we come home at night do they see joy and love in our eyes, or an empty exhaustion? Do they see a Terpsichore or a Sisyphus? Is this world really still a place worth the constant struggle, the uncertainty, the unfairness, the inhumanity we read and hear about every day? What have you done in the last few days to make those around you actually want to live? "Every bondman in his own hand bears the power to cancel his captivity," and why should these young souls not strike out against an insane world, the only way they can without taking others with them? Only we who are left behind cry and feel the pain. We shake our heads and watch the sparrows fall, but do nothing that really matters because it is inconvenient, or might preclude an Ivy League sweatshirt later. I think I know where the problem lies. You do too.

Gunn/JLS Parent,

on another thread, a Paly mom mentioned that a high achieving work load can add up to 5-8 hours of homework/night, and 10-12 per weekend. Add to it the sports, and community service and student government, give yourself credit, you are at least a time management genius to make it work so well. Your kids are not "average" though, being ranked top 4th is not average. But it's good to know what life is like, when it works.

the interesting thing you said though is that there is no time wasted on computer and video games and that they go to bed at 10:30.

Hi Parents and Students,

My kids attended other schools and one of them is taking AP Physics
C which is an advanced college level class (3rd or 4th years) and he
goes to bed by 11:00pm most of the days. I will have absolutely no hesitation of dropping that class if he can't get more than seven hours of sleep! That is why I will never sign up the same kinds of class loads for my 2nd child who normally takes more than to do
do her homework and enjoys other things in her life more than doing
home work for hours. Know your kids and planning accordingly will
help them out tremendously. Don't give in to pressure that other kids are taking this AP and that AP. Some kids take them because they will
be bored if they don't. I know a girl from my kid's school who took a
lot less AP than her peers and got into Stanford this year because
she has real passions on the things she did which is: community service, sports and journalism. Do what you/your kids enjoy and can do well on and don't stress yourself out just because other people are doing that. After all, good health is what they need the most in
life! And I know that many people graduated from UCLA or UC Berkeley do much, much better than some people graduated from Stanford and
MIT. So, it is not the end of the world if you don't get to go to Stanford!

I can imagine how the lack of sleep, lack of attention from their busy
working parents(who might actually love their kids very much) and
not able to do well in their school plus having problems making
friends can make it really unbearable for anyone to stand. So, thank
you very much for all the students who are willing to speak up and share with us. Your parents love you and the whole community is here to help you. Don't give up on us!

Break the megaschools apart! Smaller schools make more personable environment!!! A 2,000 students school size is completely inappropriate! Try not keep kids in the same class with the group of students they know well whenever possible. I am completely against reshuffling/remixing of kids starting from elementary school. Back in Russia you start with the same group of 30-40 kids from elementary school to high school. After 10 years of being a part of teh same class you inevitable develop very close relationships with classmates, they become like a family to you, and a tremendous support group. Yes, of course there are are always a few mean kids you;d rather not be in a class together for 10 years, but somehow everybody gets along, and learns to live with that. I am a firm believer that the practice of mixing and reshuffling classes contributes ot very shallow relationships between classmates and feeling of lineliness. You need at least 2 or 3 years to develop close relationships. BREAT THOSE HUMONGOUS MEGASCHOOLS INTO SMALLER SCHOOL, EVEN WITHIN ONE CAMPUS!!!!