Maybe it's similar to when folks around here deny their wealth or claim they're middle class?

This has not been my personal experience thankfully. I now have two in college and just one at home. I see friends very much engaged with their kids, keeping up the family dinner routine, attending sporting events etc. at the same time they try and respect that their kids need more independence in high school. Many of us discuss what paths we might take once becoming emtpy nesters but I only know a few parents who are in a hurry for that transition to arrive. I know I'm not alone as the topic of family life comes up regularly.

Thank @some thoughts and @resident,

That’s a really interesting idea, @some thoughts, something I will have to ponder.


@resident, I am glad to hear it, I didn’t think about possible cross-town differences. I wonder if Gunn families are under unique pressures? We are on the Gunn side. Or if the people I know have a kind of new social pressure in high school? It’s just really unexpected.

This has not been my experience. The parents in my circle may give their teens the sense that they encourage independence, but they spend a considerable amount of time monitoring their teens online.

Let's hope it is a facade.

No sane parent would respond to bullying from the schools and their hitmen online by distancing themselves from their children.

That would essentially mean throwing your kids to the mercy of the dysfunctional school system. NOBODY should feel pressure to do that!

Helicopter all you want! It is far better than sending your kid alone to the gladiator pits of PAUSD.

I agree with the first poster, but would take it one step farther and say that it's a positive acknowledgement of the toxic culture of competition that has led to past tragic "clusters" and the underlying depression. An acknowledgement that we helped craft this out-perform/out-do attitude that has led to so much anxiety and misfortune. I choose to therefore see this attitude as a proper correction where we lay off our kids by giving them more space. Less helicoptering.

[Portion removed.]

@Final reaction,
Helicoptering gets thrown around a lot, and not in a very precise way. Maybe that’s part of this, a kind of defensiveness. I’ve know these families since the kids were little and would not describe any as helicoptering. Maybe the accusation gets thrown around so much, people want to head it off, I don’t know.

Giving kids more space is indeed a good thing, if the space is needed (suggesting they need more suggests a starting point that assumes parents don’t already give them enough space or perhaps had to be told to even consider it .) The same goes for “laying off” kids, it presumes a negative starting point that assumes parents are pushing their kids and doesn’t seem to separate giving kids space from reducing family connection. It also presumes that home is where kids need laying off rather than school, which can well be where kids need to be given more space and autonomy and control of their time.

Is being a close family helicoptering? I don’t think most people believe that, and yet, this year, that seems to be the upshot.

[Portion removed.]

My point is that parenting is a fine balance. Some kids do fine as self-starters. Some cannot deal with the challenges the school creates. Yes, I know you may get all snowflakey to hear, but our schools CREATE problems for kids: hw overload, bullying by teachers, just plain bad teaching, administrative confusion. Schools just aren't built for children- especially children with anxiety or depression.

There are solutions to each one: tutoring, and advocating for your child are a big part of this.

If your kid is depressed or anxious about facing a teacher who is bullying them; facing them every day for the next year. Well that leads to despair and suicide ideation.

Knowing they have an ally in thei parents- that offers some relief to kids. And about half the time you can get some improvement: lowering a lane gets another roll of the teacher dice. Dropping a course, or getting a tutor all help. Just knowing you're not alone helps.

I know the schools don't like it when parents get in their face, but the fact is, it probably saves far more kids.

And so they call names like 'helicopter'.

[Portion removed.]

Think of it this way:

Helicopters are often used to rescue people.


So be a helicopter parent, and rescue your kid if they need it.

Like the initial poster (Concerned Local Parent) requested in their editorial, I too would appreciate a more nuanced discussion about this. I'm finding myself hungry for a more complex discussion that doesn't villify 100% of any population (parents, students or teachers)--surely it can't take too much time to contextualize concerns. The other approach is well-represented in other threads...plenty of opportunity there if that approach meets your needs.

FWIW, I can see myself doing this in a year or two. Here's my take, though I'm no psychologist.

When you have a close family, esp if one or two of the parents are pretty strong people, the kids really take what the parents say to heart. And maybe to a fault. If the parents are in the same room, it impacts how the kids think and behave. If the parents are in the kids' minds, same thing -- they don't have to be physically present. The parents can have what some might feel is an undue impact on how the kids are developing, esp as the kids are getting older and need more independence and need to try new things and take more risks. The parents recognize this, but can't change who they are. So they go overboard giving their kids some distance. "Hey, don't think about me, don't worry about me. I actually have no idea what it is you are doing, and I don't really care [this is a lie, of course]. Have at it (whatever it is)." With that kind of approach, the hope is the kids won't think so much about what their parents might think and what their parents might do, because their parents have very explicitly said they are not around and not paying attention. It gives the kids some more space, some real space, to grow. The parents reflect this in other conversations as well (with other parents), to make it more real -- they are ensuring they get used to saying this and making it real, for their kids.

They aren't doing this to hurt their kids. They are doing this because they love their kids, and want to help them become their own people, and realize that their closeness is not always the right kind of help.

The kids will get much of that when they leave home. But it's better for the kids to get it earlier, so they can take risks and fail and still be well supported and learn some lessons safely.

Just my thoughts, I am no psychologist. But I can see myself doing this in the future.

@Some thoughts,
Well said.

@Thoughts,
Also well said! I guess I would want to delve down on the premise, though, because teens have a way of rebelling against being controlled (a good thing), and this sort of works itself out. If a kid does not have enough of a sense of self or assertiveness to be able to say NO to input, whether from parents or (probably more powerfully) from peers, I'm not sure parents going totally "away" is necessarily the best approach. I guess a strong parent who rolls over their kid would need to do this, but is such a parent likely to be willing to hear the call to be more hands off?

I do think there is a real tension between family life and school where there is so much homework, which ironically, is pretty contrary to independence. Kids who get external direction constantly in their work, all day (even after they leave school because of homework), won't be helped from their parents "backing off". For some kids, this has got to send a message that the parents don't want a close relationship. I know I wished for a closer relationship with my own parents at that age. It wouldn't have had any impact on the practices that contributed to our independence as older teens and adults.

Thanks so much for your intelligent thoughts. I am talking out loud above, I'm not even sure any of it applies in this situation.

Are there any good books on parenting?
When my child was young I read a lot about how to parent.
Sounds like the people you are describing are just going on their own judgement without consulting reputable books that report on studies of children.

Objecting to homework overload is a positive action.
And too much emphasis on violent, competitive sports. Still more competition.Too much!

@Some thoughts,

That's hilarious. It is one of the strangest things about living here these days.......Hey & it's a new thing, because I
grew up here.

Also, could the author's kids just be older now? High schooler's are much different than younger kids. I used to monitor my kid's life a lot, but I am way to tired now. I just gave up.

I think they are saying this in public so they will look like they are careless and not worried. I have seen this and thought their kids were better than mine because they say they do not ever help their kids, Then I see these same kids sitting for hours at the tutoring center by the farmers market and I see these same kids with more worry because their parents paid for help and expect them to perform but were not there in person. We only have our kids for such a short time. Be with them and realize you know them better than a teacher that just met them.

We fully observed a tremendous number of bigtime helicopter parents in Palo Alto. Lots of bucks invested in their kids, lots of planning and management on the part of the parents.

@Helicopter city, it's hardly just Palo Alto. Any affluent community around here has a similar number of 'helicopter' parents.

People just seem to love bashing Palo Alto online because we are higher profile or something. It doesn't jive with my experience at all, and my kids are in high school.

This is just my experience, but I haven't seen anything remotely like this, and my kids are in middle school in PAUSD. At least at this age, the parents I know maintain close relationships with their kids, and I've never heard any of the one-upmanship type of comments described in the original post.

@Another,
Thanks for another experience point. I'm trying to think if anyone I've heard this from has kids younger than high school. I have no context to say if it goes beyond my cohort of high school parents. Maybe it doesn't.

@Helicopter City,
You and resident report very different experiences at Paly. But I will say that your comment makes me understand any possible defensiveness a little. You may be right, but I don't offhand see why being generous and providing good resources for kids is a bad thing. I wish I could. It's preferable in my opinion to the rich kids I went to middle school with whose daddies got them Mercedes convertibles and allowances that bought their drugs etc. Maybe what I'm seeing is preemptive habit against judgmental and indiscriminate charges of helicoptering, which is the new tag for shunning. You may be right, but it's also all too easy to be judgmental and run roughshod over people. I mean, I think it's important for people to be honest, nevertheless, coming out of the box about "bigtime helicopter parents", even I'm feeling defensive like I'm going to have to defend myself if I engage. I wonder if these parents have had to deal with that in some way.

It's a challenge striking a balance. While on one hand, you want to kids to "grow" on their own, on the other hand, I feel that parental monitoring is essential due to the stresses from the school. So not in particular helicopter parenting, not so much as to keep track of the homework ( I am talking about high school kids ) but its more to do with the kids emotional needs.

I have heard parents talk about 'our kids are independent' quite often alluding that they have nothing to do with the child's academics. If that is indeed true and the kids are thriving emotionally - good for you ! If the parent is not engaged and the kid is suffering emotionally - well .. not too good.

Cannot quite say the statement is true/false ( about not being engaged ) as I have seen both the sides of the coin.

Yes, it's a challenge! I don't think parents can be too close with kids, but I do think they can be too directive, even when they don't mean to be. I think it's important to support, but not direct. Let them figure things out, with you there to help. You want them to grow into themselves, not become v2 of you...

FWIW, I found this article on parent-teen communication to be helpful: Web Link

Sigh. I have mentioned MULTIPLE TIMES about the problems the PAUSD created with their behavior from the Special Ed teacher to the superintendent failures to get the mess cleaned up before the OCR HAD TO GET ANSWERS, AND DID NOT!
My parent went from a TRAINED Special Ed teacher, to Vice Principal and then to a principal. Retired as an Assistant Administrator at the SJUSD.
For the last few years, I've posted MANY ways to get back to a " NORMAL " behaving school district and basically posted my parent's views and solutions THAT WORKED FOR THE SJUSD. It has been amusing to see the advice given be ignored as the train wreck unfolded at the PAUSD.

Now to properly do things to conform with the Federal Government regulations, contact the Santa Clara County Ombudsman and get them involved in cleaning up the toxic Special Ed system at the PAUSD IMMEDIATELY.
Right now, Good Administrators wuill not want to work at the PAUSD until the OCR and the Feds are satisfied. [Portion removed.]

Someone MUST have the full support of the Board. No delays or " committees to study a plan " type delay. The PAUSD has spent their time NOT seeing or fixing the basic problems that turned into some BIG Problems!

Some $$$ has to be spent to get trained Special Ed teachers AND THEY MUST BE SUPPORTED AT THE BOARD LEVEL to deal with the " non compliance level " that the OCR found. [Portion removed.]

Parents: You ASSUMED that you were having the monies given to the PAUSD was to be spent on a quality education. That was FALSE in many areas. You have lost much of the money because you were ROBBED by some " experts " that took advantage of your gullible nature. Now reality sets in. Children are not getting the education they deserve. How are you going to give it to them?

@itsachallenge,
"I have heard parents talk about 'our kids are independent' quite often alluding that they have nothing to do with the child's academics." Is this high school age? Which schools?

Do you think this is a new bragging rights topic? I see homeschooler families having very different levels of involvement based on whether a highschooler is able to basically be their own administrator, design their own curriculum, etc, but I think that's a minority of students. The ones whose parents are directly involved don't necessarily face a challenge to their independence, it's a very different situation without life being directed by the school district. Homeschool tends to support independence because of the freedom. I don't see those people judging each other based on whether the student can take over the planning and curriculum management, i.e., don't need parents at all. It seems like being independent and working together aren't regarded as mutually exclusive. I wonder why it is the case with school now, at least among some? Do you think it is a part of the oft-noted Stanford Duck Syndrome, i.e., see how easy this is for me/my child and I/we don't need anyone's help?

[Post removed due to same poster using multiple names]

I'll weigh in here and note that it's high school that gets really hardcore. The Chinese culture prioritizes academics. The Tiger Parents are first or second generation parents. By third, they've loosened up but still expect at least Bs and don't punish or threaten their children. Please DO NOT assume that all Asian immigrants are Tiger Parents. Many of them don't want the rigor of China academics and they want balance for their children. Worse, please don't assume that ALL Asians are Tiger Parents! There are also non-Asians who are hardcore too, as Palo Alto has successful parents. So don't believe any of them when they say they are not involved. True, there are many who are not involved, but their children are not shooting for Top 50 universities. These students who are going to elite schools are having guidance from their parents (no doubt about it) especially if Ivy Leagues and Top 20 colleges. This is not the 80s; it's a new age of college applications and it's insane (start reading books before they get to high school; they will need some focused extracurricular for their college applications). Do what you think is right for your children. My husband is in a competitive career and even back in college, people would try to screw each other, and they were Caucasians. They'd lie that they didn't study for a test (when they studied hard); lie that they are just hanging out during the summer (but are really doing and internship), etc.

I feared Paly, after reading all the fear-mongering postings. I thought a day missed would be deadly; I thought my child would only get 5 hours of sleep, and was wrong about both. Although sleep deprivation is a fact of PAUSD high school life, as teens should get 8-10 hours of sleep and they don't because there is little time after school, with 3-5 hours of homework, extracurriculars for the college resume, and studying for SATs. The 5 hours or less of sleep is due to taking too many AP classes (more than 4 total in high school).

Homeschoolers are the parents who are close and loving. I admit, our family is close and loving, but I could never teach.

Lastly, I'd like to advise parents to let their children choose their colleges. Visit the campuses during the school year (not summer when they can't see the students), research the colleges, speak to professors, chairs, and administrations. Please don't choose their college for them based upon reputation. Some kids never step a foot on their college campuses until move-in day, which is sad. This year, I have already heard of at least half a dozen freshmen who have left their prestigious universities and are back at home, claiming they are taking a Gap Year. They didn't like their school but were coerced by their parents to attend. Happens every year. I even spoke with a plumber at our house who said that often clients would brag about their child attending an elite college but the next year, when he returned to the home, the child would be back at home, attending Foothill. It's their life, not yours. Guide them, don't force them.

@Third generation,
Thanks for your comment. I agree that Asian parents get inappropriately bashed here, too, and was including them in my initisl plea. Thank you for specifically addressing that issue. I think one of the problems locally is that there is on the one hand academics, and on the other, the structure of school here that isn't necessary for learning or may even impede learning, but that is hard and thus is confused with intellectual rigor and used as a measure of achievement. A lot of parents do not see the difference, or do not understand the non-learning-related challenges, and thus may misinterpret what is happening if a child is struggling, especially if teachers are overtly making the wrong interpretation. There is a kind of -- I almost want to call it hazing -- students have to prove their worth through hoop jumping that shoukdn't eclipse learning, but very often does.

At high school level, many homeschool parents are not doing any teaching, so don't let that scare you. It's really about guiding students to be self-directed learners. There are so many resources out there, you could pick whatever you want even to the point of not being at home. A lot of homeschool kids take community college classes in high school, for example.

I don't think DeAnza/Foothill is a bad stepping stone, CC's are very focused on teaching, and there are good transfer programs. Another thing that happens is kids burn out in high school. I never visited my college but we didn't have the money. I found it incredibly hard the first year but was not burned out from high school so I ultimately did well. Those kids who are burned out from high school do not do well later. All this stuff they make kids do in the name of "rigor", I think, doesn't trust kids with their own learning, and burns them out.

Re the post about allowing your child to choose their college, our first child had his dream college chosen in senior year but the reputation of its department of his major was unranked so his dad forced him to attend a college with a good ranking for his major. A compliant child, he went and it was a terrible experience, being amongst students on a different wavelength, in a boring city. He tried everything to make it work: joined a frat, went to clubs, but these people were a different subculture. In his third year, he got very ill with a bad virus so had to drop out. I told him to apply to his dream college; he transferred there this fall and is having a ball. There’s lots to do and the students are friendly and active. He’ll take 5 years to graduate but it doesn’t matter; he is happy. Even his dad admitted it was the right choice to transfer. Turns out he is working harder academically than at the prior school but he is happy and has plenty of friends.

Soft skills are equally important for our children to learn, especially before venturing out into the real world with office politics. PAUSD doesn’t allow enough down time for the students to learn social skills and there is a lot of social awkwardness, partly genetic. A good portion of students in PAUSD are unhappy, sleep deprived, and can’t wait to get to college for a better life, and it’s even true for those “popular” students.

As far as the original posting, some parents share, others don’t want to share their children’s activities so they claim they don’t know, when in fact, they are involved every step of the way. There are even parents who won’t tell where their child is applying to college. The mortgages are high here so the parents who can afford it are competitive by nature or have learned to compete because they had to in their country.

Sigh. I actually did this with SJSU. My experience was to learn how to learn. After that, the only computer education class that was offered was FORTRAN and I aced it. ( I had already built my own personal computer and had M$ Fortran on it )
THERE WAS NO ENGINEERING DEGREE FOR COMPUTER RELATED STUDIES! The only other thing I learned that " to get ahead was to learn how to brown-nose the right people ".

So I dropped out; I was learning far more at AMD, where I had a full time job and was learning how to repair and calibrate $multi-million test equipment.

So I had more coursework at Foothill College.I learned how to fly a plane and how to SCUBA dive. I also had coursework on alternative energy and American Indian studies.
These courses that I took actually figured in my employment in the future. As I had not earned a degree yet and had stayed employed, I thought I had things settled until my AS degree was finished.
BUT, my experience was wanted IMMEDIATELY at Cray Research. I was a perfect candidate at Cray Research for their new $5,000,000 FAB area.
Later on, after the dust settled on the new project, I was asked to finish a degree. I learned far more from the people with Dr. and PhD titles and I did not want to interfere with my NEW type of education. Yes, I did take classes where Cray employees taught then; I learned about quantum physics in one of the classes. Where else can you jump ahead of the line instead of taking all the prerequisite coursework in a regular university setting? Or work at the same level with a PhD specialist and call him by his first name?

So go ahead with your four year BSEE and see what job you can get. I never learned office politics; I was just the best hardware specialist around at the time ( 40 years ago ).
My biggest praise; I had no A+ certs when I answered an ad for a network job. They tested me on my PC skills. After the testing and verbal interview, they said " you could have actually written the A+ exam! ". Unfortunately, the contract with Uniroyal was my first experience with outsourcing; Instead of an upgrade,the new owners shut the plant down.

My broadened education allowed me to jump into other jobs. Foothill College helped when jobs in your major becomes scarce. That is reality.

@the_punnisher: There's tons of those "back in the day" stories that are outdated in today's world. What amazes me is that you don't realize your unique journey and your advice is also outdated. Students can no longer attend high school and focus on learning instead of grades. This is 2017, not 1972; things have changed.

Yes I have observed this frequently in conversations with parents, especially parents of teenagers. Some even add a tone of one-upmanship by feigning ignorance of any school related news. I agree that it probably stems from “anti-helicoptering”, also the “raise your kids to be a responsible adult” aspirations that has been a popular topic on the parenting book lists and lecture circuits.

@True Story and LOL,
Thank you for sharing your experiences. I especially appreciate knowing that I'm not alone. LOL, are these Gunn parents? I just wanted to double check. Per your last point, do you think there is a local difference, even within our city, or is there a broader trend? Can you explain about the aspirations? Does the topic include the subject of family closeness and collaboration, or is that assumed to run contrary to youth independence?

Concerned LP

As someone commented, there are local lecture circuits, books and general scrutiny about helicoptering.

Along with your question it's a pattern of shaming parents. Asking what's up with you "Palo Alto parent"? Or your need to "double check" its a "Gunn parent." Labeling and so forth.

Given this atmosphere, it could be some parents will tell you anything to get you off their back. I doubt there is special parent water here that makes parents that different than other parts of the country or the world in terms of family closeness or demonstration thereof.

It could be that it's just you, reacting to diversity of parenting from your own expectations about parenting.

No, they were not just Gunn parents. It’s more widespread and is not tied to any one school or ethnicity. This may have started about the time Julie Lythcott-Haim’s lectures were standing room only a few years back. Her book and others along the same vein made parents aware of the long term effects of helicoptering. We live in a well educated, well read community where the norm is to excel, which extends to excelling as parents. But I can sympathize, some people can be a tad obnoxious in their quests to better themselves.

The helicoptering types want to believe that every parent with successful kids is doing the same, but that's not the case. There are plenty of talented kids in this town who stand out without any pushing from the parents.

As for parents "feigning" ignorance of school news, not sharing where their kid is applying: As the poster above said, could it be that these people are just trying to get certain overly competitive parents off their backs?

@Just a Thought School news to me is “do you know if next Friday is half day?” and “I heard the teacher quit. Who is teaching the class now?” Not nosy questions about where their kid is applying. Most parents say “I haven’t heard a thing” and then don’t seem to care about finding out either.

@labels,
I would love to hear more about what you describe as a pattern of shaming parents. But first I have to ask you to read my initial post and not lead with an attack. My concern comes from observing a new/odd pattern of behavior, including among dear friends, that I am concerned may indeed be coming from a new pattern of parent shaming. It was not my intention for my post to add to that, which is why I led with:

"This is not a forum to bash parents in this area, who are in my opinion far more conscientious, loving, intelligent, and socially mindful than any group I’ve lived around. They don’t deserve the bashing they get from people who want to deflect blame for the failings of our school district systems. Parent bashing has become a sport around here, but please start your own thread if you want to go at it again. I think it’s mostly wrong-headed, and it’s off-topic here. "

I can see why you might have gotten the wrong idea if you read the title in isolation, but I would hope we can speak more constructively if you understand that I am defending parents not bashing them, and that in no way does the last statement from your post fit the situation I described. I tend to think parents know their kids' needs better than anyone, I am not on board with a recent trend I have noticed among some educators to assume parents can't know their kids.

It seems that you are lashing out some from some negative personal experience with parent shaming. Please let's restart, I would like to understand where this is coming from. I have noticed the parent shaming online - but I am often the one defending parents.

If you feel comfortable, please share your thoughts about the parent shaming, and whether you think that is related to this behavior - and if you, too, have witnessed it lately as your post seems to indicate (though I don't want to just conjecture from the defensiveness. You have a reason for being defensive, I'd like to know more.)

label.
parents here are different here and not in a good way. Parents not sharing are the ones who have been hurt by parents wanting private information they can use to climb over or stop or ruin any other child passing theirs. These parents are getting what they deserve. silence. These are not helicopter parents, they are something else. There are really great families and they know not to release information about their kids to these toxic parents.

Some people share, others don't, depends if they are close friends or not. China has a population of 1.3 billion. It's too bad those who grew up in that competitive edge bring their behavior to the United States. My daughter had an acquaintance who had just been accepted to Columbia, but according to my daughter, was not excited about attending. Since she was a senior, I asked her some questions but she refused to share anything. No tips on what SAT courses she took, or anything. She just kept repeating, "Something like that . . . " Her mom rarely let her out of the house. She said her mom couldn't drive her to Paly for the event, yet when I drove up, they were just returning home in their car, and the mom didn't even wave at me. This kind of behavior causes divisiveness.

First of all, let me state that as a professional educator for several decades who has worked with kids from a multitude of schools (at least 20 in the immediate area and another 20 or so from other areas) that I feel the primary problem around here has specifically to do with parenting much more than it does the school’s administrators and teachers.

That said, parenting styles differ significantly and we should be careful not to make blanket statements, as I apparently just did. ;-)

@Concerned Local Parent wrote in the original article that local parents “are in my opinion far more conscientious, loving, intelligent, and socially mindful than any group I’ve lived around.” I would disagree, at least for a great many of them. He/she also wrote “They don’t deserve the bashing they get from people who want to deflect blame for the failings of our school district systems.” My opinion on this is that most of the failings of our school system have to do with their adjusting the system to please the parents, or at least the most vocal among them, who seem to care more about their kids’ grades and test scores than they do about the potentially negative emotional impact of the stressful situation that has been created as a result. But I, too, have seen what the author of the original post has with parents distancing themselves from their teenage kids. And I find it concerning.

Now to respond to a few comments made thus far…
@social media: “This has not been my experience. The parents in my circle may give their teens the sense that they encourage independence, but they spend a considerable amount of time monitoring their teens online.” Sounds like some very good parenting going on with this group. Kudos!

@Facade: “No sane parent would respond to bullying from the schools and their hitmen online by distancing themselves from their children. That would essentially mean throwing your kids to the mercy of the dysfunctional school system. NOBODY should feel pressure to do that! Helicopter all you want! It is far better than sending your kid alone to the gladiator pits of PAUSD.” Here is a parent who obviously doesn’t get it…

@Thoughts obviously DOES get it.

@my experience asks “Are there any good books on parenting? When my child was young I read a lot about how to parent. Sounds like the people you are describing are just going on their own judgement without consulting reputable books that report on studies of children.” I have studied psychology in quite some detail and specifically concerning parenting to the extent that I have been asked to consider a career in parent coaching. I think it is commendable that you are asking for recommendations on books to read on parenting for older kids. Things can get quite tricky and the guidelines we had used with our younger kids should be gradually adjusted over the years as they mature, to the point that parenting a tween is drastically different than parenting a child of 8-10, which was quite different than parenting a younger child. Parenting should change significantly over the teen years as well. But all these changes should be made fairly gradually, in all but the most severe cases (juvenile delinquency, trauma, etc.). Our local libraries have MANY great books on parenting; over 2000 books in the Parenting classification when doing an online search of the PA library database. Here are a few books worth checking out: “How to Raise an Adult” was written by a Palo Altan. Her ideas are not new (they follow what most competent parenting professionals advise) but are explained in a way that is quite clear and include her own, local examples based in part on her time working at Stanford. I think “Parenting Teens with Love and Logic” is great. Simple and makes a ton of sense. I have mixed feelings about “Minimalist Parenting,” which provides some arguments for what the original poster noted seeing, albeit perhaps not to such an extreme.

@Another posts “This is just my experience, but I haven't seen anything remotely like this, and my kids are in middle school in PAUSD. At least at this age, the parents I know maintain close relationships with their kids, and I've never heard any of the one-upmanship type of comments described in the original post.” Yes, this is primarily an issue that comes up with high school kids. Often the parents were helicopters in years prior and then, usually somewhere between late junior year and early senior year, decide that their kids have everything they need done for their college applications out of the way and can therefore be “let go.” And they let go in a big way. Their kids go out drinking with their friends but it’s no completely OK because they had great grades and are going to be able to get into a good college no matter how irresponsible they (or their parents) are in this final year…

@ItsAChellenge gets it. @Thoughts does, too. We should help our kids grow to become independent, figuring things out on their own when they can, but being there as their support.

@Third Generation, Chinese tells @the_punnisher that his college/career path is no longer relevant. To this I would say that, as a professional educator and involved in hiring teachers and advising on career development, his non-standard college/career path IS relevant and many students today should consider seriously what he has stated about his personal history.

Let me close in saying that I think that parenting is the single most important job that most of us will ever have. And that goes for those who run multi-million dollar companies; not just the stay-at-homers. We owe it to our kids and our society to do our best in our role as parents. I highly recommend reading up on the subject and talking with professionals in the field. Regardless, please realize that our kids are not there simply to give you something to brag about nor to make excuses about. They are human beings who have hopes and dreams and skills and shortcomings and who will do better with your help. One of the biggest ways we can help them is to get them ready to go out into the world and survive independent of us. But this should be a gradual process. Keep them under your wing when they are very young. But gradually open up your wings and let them increasingly use their own. Having done this, you can truly be proud of what they and you have accomplished.

TL;DR

PAUSD is not a safe place for children. That is why some parents choose higher level of support. And usually only needed during the school year.

By the way - for those into name- calling: "helicopter " is being used as a pejorative.

I think the moderators should delete posts which use the term offensively.

@kids,
Please elaborate on your experience. The situation I described was of friends whose children I care about and celebrate and who care about mine. (Also not people who would keep inviting me if it were toxic.). Also acquaintances doing the same thing- not silence, though, an almost eery demonstration of having nothing to do with the kids. You are clearly describing something you have strong emotions about but I am having trouble understanding how it is related. I do not have enough context to understand your input fully.

@Educator,
You make some good points, but we will just have to just disagree about the school district, though, I have seen far too much dysfunction. I don’t see a district that bends to parents, I see a lot of favoritism - that’s different. While I could sit a long time naming good and dedicated educators, too, on the district level, this district is probably the most negative and insular I have ever witnessed when it comes to working with parents.

I am also not on board with the way you have just reviewed all the commenters as if you are infallible and the only right and correct point of view. If parents here are subjected to that kind of self-righteous critiquing on a regular basis, no wonder they are defensive - look at how preachy your last paragraph was. You said many good things, don’t get me wrong, well-intentioned and caring, but in a way that assumed the parents are just clueless and you are God on high giving them new wisdom only you can give. Parents usually know their kids better than anyone, and parents know the district far more than schools know what happens at home. When the schools have dealt with the extreme busywork problem, and not respecting the autonomy of students or the sanctity of student and family time after the end of school, and when following their own rules is no longer so difficult, let’s talk again. I think we have great teachers here, although as has been noted on these discussions, they aren’t exactly the biggest upstanders. I believe the stories about the grade hungry parents, but they’re just not something I have witnessed and would wager it’s neither the vast majority nor any different than you will find in say Los Altos or Menlo. I have raised my own around these parents and I will say again, this community has some of the most mindful, conscientious caring parents I have witnessed anywhere. I believe the stories about district dysfunction because I have witnessed it.

Everything the parent bashers blame Palo Alto parents for is around in the surrounding wealthy communities that haven’t gone through such depression problems and more. There are major differences when it comes to the school district dysfunctional aspects, though. The level of disrespect toward parents from the district is far higher in Palo Alto, I would say. I do not really wish to pursue that conversation, though, as I asked at the outset for this to please not be yet another forum for parent bashing that is all the rage these days.

I will say that I have noticed a different attitude toward adults from kids in school versus kids who have been educated in more self-directed settings who tend to act more natural around adults. I know the educators don’t like to think of themselves as a barrier to student independence, either, yet so much about the system unintentionally inculcates compliance rather than independence.

Concerned local parent,

You asked " I would love to hear more about what you describe as a pattern of shaming parents."

anonymous"educator who says he/she "worked with "multitude of schools" "at least 20 in the immediate area and another 20 or so from other areas." gave you a mouthful...he/she says disagrees with parents being “ conscientious, loving, intelligent, and socially mindful than any group I’ve lived around.” Educator says "I would disagree, at least for a great many of them."

Next thing you know - medical advice will be dispensed here.

Add up anonymous' educators post with your original post

"They (foreign born parents)seem to be falling all over themselves to disclaim those without any evidence of harm, or even the harm of withdrawing those connections.

I am not seeing this among my parent friends from other states. I haven’t noticed anything like it among my local parent friends whose kids are in private schools. I am not seeing this among my homeschool parent friends, who tend to have to form more collaborative relationships with their older children, who must be more independent in order to educate that way. I have not seen this from my parent friends from other local cities, but I will try to pay more attention. It certainly has been very noticeable among my PAUSD parent friends, to the point of being disturbing."

Generally, your post has generated the random stereotyping of one set of parents and another.

I'm not even sure you had a specific question but has it been answered in any way?

@labels,
I did ask a specific question. I would direct you to please re-read my entire original post, understanding that I am more on your side than you seem to appreciate (if you perhaps read my subsequent posts in this thread). It's not that long. When you get to the end, the question is pretty direct. I am not trying to bash parents, I am trying to understand if others are observing what I have been observing, which may be a negative reaction to an environment locally of shaming parents. Some of the responses so far seem to support that, overtly and indirectly. Others make clear that they don't think so. I am looking for all input, except for bashing, which is what "educator" above was doing. I have expressed my disagreement with "educator" since his/her post.

I do not see how this "generates random stereotyping" etc. You remain very defensive, but I would really appreciate hearing what from your experience has caused this (after you take the time to read everything through recognizing that you misunderstood my intent and I would genuinely like a real discussion with your thoughtful input). You have expressed your anger about my post, and I have tried to explain that it was not intended as you seem to have taken it. You clearly have some experiences that are raw or you would not react like this, but you are only sharing your anger, not trying to participate in a discussion of this issue. And yet your anger is a kind of evidence that you probably have a lot of experience with this, so I once again ask that you consider sharing it.

I'm sorry if you think my description of friends "foreign-born parents whose tight extended family bonds and behaviors I have always found admirable and worthy of emulation" is a stereotype. It is in fact an observation. It also needed to be said for why the current behavior is confusing and different than previous. I am not singling them out in this behavior, though, only in how unusually tight their bonds and behaviors seem over the long time I have known them.

Your anger would seem to underscore that this is happening. Please consider a restart - erase any assumptions and start again. I explained what I had observed, and asked if others had observed anything similar. Some have. Your posts inducate that you did not read everything before jumping to conclusions and lumping me in with those like "educator" which is not the case. All I can do is ask you to let go of that and start again - just remember that I really am not on the side of parent bashing, as I went to great lengths to say, I'm not sure how I can get you to separate that idea from observations of potential effects of that locally. Your defensiveness did not start just now, there is something behind it. Do you think it is related to what I am observing?

@Concerned - yes, I absolutely fall all over myself to express how independent and how wonderful my kids are doing.

But that's a new development since they left PAUSD. We have found a supportive, competent, well organized school that is built for teens. It is such an enormous change you would literally not believe.

And we have found that the right environment has absolutely allowed our kids more independence. They are suddenly thriving! We, as parents, no longer have to run interference for the school and their myriad of screw ups.

Yes, I'm telling our friends how wonderful they are doing.

And why.

@Facade,
I love it! That's what I miss, being able to celebrate the kids' thriving. (And that independence is not mutually exclusive with being a close family :-) !)

Can you share the school and more about what made the difference? Have you observed what I have been concerned about in these district parents? (And if so, what do you think can help improve things for them now that you have done this for your kids?)

"What made the difference?"

The list is long, probably the largest impact is the complete, total mindset towards kids is 180 degrees different than Paly. It is a lot less judging and much more encouraging to try.

The staff are very excited to be there and want to help students; they volunteer to do extra things with students. They look for ways to help.

The administration is simplified so that students can navigate school on their own, and they are encouraged to do so! That means as a parent you get to reward their successful independence, rather than scold another administrative screwup.

Picking classes is easy and online. You can choose your class and which teacher you want. If it doesn't work out, you can change class in the first two weeks.

Teachers are organized. You get a syllabus at the start of class for the entire semester, with homework sets and due dates! On the first day of class! This gives kids visibility to plan their schedule around busy times. And guess what - they actually do it! By themselves.

All teachers use the same grade book online. Grades are often posted within a day or two of turning in work. This may not sound like a big deal, but it means students can track their own progress. If something went missing, they know within the week.

It is a place built for simplicity, clear, predictable schedules and understandable administration- everything a student needs to manage, on their own, with low anxiety. There are no surprises or stress inducing panics.

No teacher has bullied or intimidated them.

I know, you're thinking 'this week, right?'; but no, I mean all semester. And all last year as well. They haven't yelled at the kids, threatened them with lifelong failure, called them names, or anything but professional respect.

No teacher or admin has tried to have sex with the students. In fact whole weeks go by without anyone accidentally trying to have sex with a student.

There has been no project jerk around. Nothing assigned on Friday, due on Sunday. In fact, because every assignment, quiz and test is on the syllabus, there aren't any surprises. Homework over break just doesn't happen.

Tests are challenging, but not in the usual "surprise! Here are questions that we never covered in class!" sort of way. Rather they challenge the depth of learning from class and homework. It's fair. So that's different.

The teachers are extremely competent: you are unlikely to find your kid in a math or science class where the teacher doesn't know the math or science. In fact the teachers know it so well that they can explain it very clearly. Try that with Chen or Choy. We really haven't needed tutors anywhere near as much as the befuddled mess at Paly.

No Science teacher has set any student on fire. So that's also good.

There is no homework overload. The projects are very clearly specified, so there is no confusion about what you are doing. Same with labs and writing assignments. The students can actually figure out what is expected by themselves. That is so critical to being independent, and really builds confidence fast. They feel like they get it!

As a parent, it's great - you spend your time congratulating your kid on the great work they did themselves, rather than helping them muddle through an ill defined mess of a project the day after Thanksgiving.

As parents, we aren't put in the position of having to police the mountain of homework that Paly assigned. Rather, the kids get through work on their own, and we get to share praise and enthusiasm. It is such a positive experience that it feeds back on itself, and the kids feel proud of their work, and proud to be a student!

It is, in short, the exact opposite of Paly in every material way.

It's college.

Concerned local parent,

"Celebrate the kids' thriving. (And that independence is not mutually exclusive with being a close family"

Sounds like this is related to your question - you are concerned about a "disturbing" trend you say you are sensing among your friends, who are not talking about the close relationship with their kids and Instead they are showing off about how independent their kids are.

It's alway been a diverse issue in the district with some parents doing more supports than others (and sharing or not about what they do). This may even be a private school vs public school topic. Some disclose all they do, tutors, etc. Some kids really need the supports and may not be getting enough help.

Whether parents share (or not) about their parenting does not make them particularly special or that not disclosing everything has to do with the district, or Palo Alto. I don't have any "raw" experiences about this - it's just known. Some people share, others don't. The part about independence - very complicated. Most kids need supports, and again, parents should be free to share or not. Celebrating independence is always a good thing, so that doesn't seem to be there problem. My point is that whatever parents do, it's not because of a fad, it is because everybody has different styles but asking why parents are XYZ, or why not can lead to labels and stereotypes. This may sound "angry" to you, but it's not, it's just my opinion, no answers, parents are all kind of similar, just different styles.

@labels,
They aren't exactly showing off how independent their students are, and certainly not celebrating, or I wouldn't have posted, they are using distance from their students as a proxy for independence, almost falling all over themselves to say how they have nothing to do with their kids and vice versa. This is something new and disconcerting, and I am coming across it so much here, I wanted to know if others noticed it, too. I very much agree that young adult independence is good; I don't agree that independence as a human being is mutually exclusive with family closeness, and regardless, I've never come across this kind of behavior before, which seems not to be happening elsewhere. Have parents here been coached to think this way, and what implications does it have for the future?

When you say "it's just known" I was wondering if you could explain? It's not clear what that refers to, and given the diversity of parents, what contributes to everyone knowing (sorry, I'm lost there, plus we aren't in the district now).

@Facade,
The junior colleges around here are all very focused on teaching. Do you mean junior college, middle college, or did they start at a four-year? We also saw what you described with junior college - the prof sends out all the assignments and due dates at the start of class. Have you observed the behavior I described in the district? I'm with you, the right environment supports independence. But when you talk about your kids' independence, is it measured by how little you have to do with each other, as I am hearing, or rather how self-directed and capable they are (which is not the same thing - obviously I think you would say the latter).

@concerned - just started 4-yr college

I haven't seen parents trying to distance themselves from their kids who are still in PAUSD; in fact PAUSD is every bit as dysfunctional as always. I still get the litany of bad experience; so parents have to keep close involvement.

I do see parents appreciate independence; mostly older teens, and mostly on break - travel abroad with non profits; beach camping with friends; road trips - fun stuff.

The kids I've met really are wonderful and quite capable if given the right environment!

[Post removed.]

@Facade,
I would agree with you there that a lot of the college experience can be moved down into the high school years where it improves student autonomy and education. Giving students more control of their own time. More self direction. Trusting them more. At least not burning them out. A lot less judging and more encouraging of them to try, as you say. I always think it's ironic for local schools to preach to parents about their childrens independence when school itself is the overriding factor deciding their time and autonomy throughout the school year. It's a kind of your-education-or-your-life choice that isn't necessary.

If you could change three things about the high school experience you describe, what would you want the local high school to change to be more like what you have observed from college?

I appreciate hearing from someone whose experience is different - you both see the dysfunction and don't see what I and others above have observed - maybe it's a Gunn phenomenon? I'm going to continue to pay attention and hope for more input.

@ experienced teacher.

You can teach at 200 schools with thousands of kids and still not be an expert on any one kid. You have to honor parents and actually listen to them because they know their kids and you do not and should not be overlaying any one experience onto any other family. You are not "experienced" with all families because of other disconnected experiences. That is the joy and fun of teaching. Every family is different and you are there to deliver curriculum, not parenting advice. You are not an expert and can not be.

since you say parents are the problem with a winky face, I will add that teachers in Palo Alto might consider that some parents might not be idiots and maybe they should consider that some parents want things to be great for all the kids, not just theirs. maybe. I am not sure, but I have hope this might be the case sometimes.

"If you could change three things about the high school experience "

Five years ago our problems were merely ineptitude; I might have recommended things like a syllabus, testing what you teach, and ending homework overload. However benign these recommendations might have been they would not have been implemented anyhow.

It doesn't matter. Today academics doesn't matter - the safety of our students is all that matters. Our schools have degraded so swiftly in the last five years that there is a war between the schools and the community. Issues such as:
"Is it okay for our children to be molested? When is that okay? ". "When is it okay to cover this up?" Is everyone a mandatory reporter?" "Can the leadership bury the abuse of children?"


It is incredible that such questions go unanswered; the credibility of every educator is at stake - I have not seen a single educator step forward and demand accountability, not one has disassociated themselves from the stink.

They have lost the support of the community. This cannot stand for long. We will have an angry electorate, and disaffected brain drain on staff.

My three recommendations are to rebuild credibility with the community; establish students as the purpose of the schools and empower them to decide the educational outcomes.

1) zero tolerance on sexual harassment; and reporting sexual harassment. Zero tolerance on staff behaviors such as hazing, bullying and intimidation of students; and reporting on the same. Everyone is a mandatory reporter on all of the above. Fail to report? Gone.

2)establish a standing committee to investigate and remove staff who fail (1) above. Operates under the authority of the city, reports to city council. Keeps city attorney and school board up to date on status. Has authority and responsibility to terminate staff directly bypassing any other procedure

3)empower students to select teachers. They know what is best for themselves. Enable them to pick classes based on who the teacher is. Enable them to switch teachers without dropping down lanes. This will solve ALL the academic ineptitude in one swoop. No point laying out a bunch of tactical prescriptions for teacher failings- let the teachers sort that out themselves; if they want students in their class, they can wander over to their best peers and learn best practices. If not, too bad: no students in your section? - then you're let go. If you only attract enough students for 20% of a schedule, then that is all you're paid for.

Very quickly we will converge on a set of teachers who respect students, teach them, and operate a clear, understandable classroom.


These three recommendations essentially blow up the power structure that currently fails our students and places them at risk of great harm.

If you are interested in changing Board member elections, there is a proposal at Tuesday's Board of Education meeting to place term limits for Board of Education members on the ballot.
Web Link

It does seem like things changed about 5 years ago. Why? what happened to make the shift?

Why the Board of Education turned negative the last 5 years -

From watching and attending many Board meetings over the years, the negative shifts I saw:

1) Board of Education became overly dependent on a few District employees. These employees controlled almost all access to knowledge about a subject, especially in Special Education, Legal, Compliance, Human Resources, and Contracting. When they told the Board they succeeded 100%, the Board believed them, no matter how implausible their stories became.

2) The Board overly relied on advice of attorneys with their own interests, such as finding cases to take to Appeals Court or even the Supreme Court. That is not really the function of a local school district. So we got ridiculous cases against families who couldn't speak English, and poorly sourced and unsupported accusations against disabled.

3) The Board relied too heavily on the California State Board Association, which puts on conferences and training for Board members. The Board never checked the relationship of CSBA management with the law firms and employees who ran up large legal fees in other districts. At CSBA talks, attorney's who sponsored talks and generated fear to get business and prompt Board members to see families as bad and fight them legally, no matter how absurd the cause was.

4) Board members had tremendous hubris, either believing they had been around so long they knew everything, or as in point 1), believing what staff told them. For example, 'there is no bullying' or 'all special ed parents are just emotional and do not understand.' The Board became more anti-parent and "Us vs. Them."

5) Lack of critical thinking showed in budget, teacher contracts, revenue projections, reorganizations, poor business management practices. Some of this came from lack of business management experience of most of the Board Members for a time, with many of them bragging about their experience as lawyers, PIE presidents, PTA presidents. They came from positions of power in the District, even if volunteers, they were elite volunteers. Board members were used to being bowed to, and did not understand the real truth.

6) A disastrous reorganization giving one employee total control over services, enrollment, registrations, Special Education, evaluations, counseling, legal, and compliance. The employee policed their own work and conduct, and determined if they themselves complied or not. They were allowed to choose their own attorney, even after Board and parents documenting problems with their work.

Above all, the Board was arrogant, listening to know one they had not hired or promoted, shutting out families and evidence that did not agree with their views.

My view was that the board became almost entirely insiders - PTA, PIE, etc. - essentially a "booster" club, who viewed their role as supporting the superintendent and boosting the "brand," vs. oversight and governance. It wasn't all bad, but in the crunch, they would just circle the wagons.

They did receive horrible legal advice (and followed it!), not sure if that was bad luck or by design - both of the primary firms are now gone, but the jury still out on the new ones.

Having two board members stay for 3 terms didn't help; they also changed the election year (in 2009?), which extended all the incumbents' terms by a year. The board got captured by the staff and defensive of old decisions. Term limits would help that.

Multiple Terms - I can't see the benefit older 3 term Board Members said they bring by knowing where all the information is hidden. They haven't brought it out. Parents did. Despite their knowledge, they haven't made sure rules or regulations are followed. At times they don't even use common sense, allowing the attacks at Palo Alto High School to go on unchecked.

Law Firms - The past law firms (FFF and Lazano Smith) were hired without competition or bidding, according to PAUSD because everybody knew about them. The new law firm - AALR - has PAUSD used them for two years? Board Member Godfrey praises them for their advice on sexual harassment policies, to the point of adoration of one attorney. She may be great, but that doesn't mean they all are. AALR has much wider control in being the Special Education lawyers. The firm has not prevented PAUSD from walking into OCR cases or preventing rampant non-compliance. When I heard the Cozan report, I kept wondering, "doesn't their law firm advise them on anything?" Some parts of the firm may be effective for PAUSD, but clearly not all of their services are.

The Board just believed and relied too much on employees and lawyers repeating the same script - there is no bullying, there is no harassment, all concerns have been addressed, our audits show 100% success rates, our Administrators don't get raises tied to teacher contracts (when they do), if you don't support unsustainable economic structures, you don't support teachers, if you don't support a policy, you don't support teachers.

Also on the docket at the 11/14/2017 Board meeting are firms to conduct the Superintendent Search. One is the firm who conducted the previous search, another is a CSBA firm. Afraid with either of these firms, we will end up with more of what we have had the past 5 years. We need a fresh start. Web Link