Good for the students ~ Ceasefire

At the risk of offending these self-righteous students, I would like to inquire how they can overlook the barbaric event instigated by Hamas on October 7, and why on earth they would expect that Israel would not do everything in its power to defend itself and to ensure such an atrocity will not be repeated?

Hamas and their sponsor Iran have both promised to destroy Israel and kill as many Jews as they can. That is genocide. Israel is targeting Hamas fighters, tunnels and munitions in Gaza to prevent that promised genocide from becoming a reality.

Doesn't seem like it's in Stanford's interest to start taking sides in international political disputes, as much as people would like them to.

There's no excuse for any students being harassed for who they are or what they believe. College campuses need to remain safe environments for all of the students and faculty, and places for honest, respectful discourse and education.
There also should be a very clear distinction between free speech and hate speech. That line has been crossed on many campuses across the U.S. and the administrations need to be called to task for failing to protect students and faculty from hate speech. There's room for disagreement of views. There should be no room for hate speech of any kind. It's dangerous and can rapidly turn into violence.

I expected stanford students to be more mature and thoughtful and not fall into the knee-jerk liberalism of the moment. Thomas Friedman captures this sentiment in a recent article
“ On a personal level, I am appalled by the reaction of those students and progressives who sided with Hamas against Israel — in some cases, even before Israel retaliated — as if the Jewish people were not entitled to either self-determination or self-defense in any part of their ancestral homeland. This backlash also fails to take into account that Israel, for all its faults, is a multicultural society where almost half of graduating doctors today are Arabs or Druze. Or that Hamas is a militant, Islamist organization that does not tolerate dissent or L.G.B.T.Q. individuals and has been dedicated to wiping the Jewish state off the face of the earth.”

The horrific loss of one or 1500 lives on October 7, does not equal the horrific loss of four or 10000 more lives trapped over a wall and in a barrel with no escape. Whose human life is more critical over another? Laws of War? Orwell knew too well. Stop the bloodshed.

Stanford should allow the peaceful protests as any university should. Stanford does not need to take sides in a war however.

The title of this article would have been more accurate if it were "Some Stanford students continue ..." or even "A small number of Stanford students continue ..."

I think that demonstrations could stand side-by-side supporting Israel's right to a free and democratic country but condemning the ongoing invasion of Gaza under Neten-yahoo's (Gulliver's Travels) direction and Gaza's right to be part of a Palestinian country without interference , but condemning the Hamas slaughtering of innocent Israelis going about their normal lives. There are no heroes here.

The core problem for the past 75 years is that Israel was built on land violently stolen from the local people, of whom about 750,000 were rendered homeless and they and their descendants have been refugees ever since. If that were not enough, those remaining in what is now Israel have been, at best, second class citizens. Those in the Occupied West Bank continue to have their homes and schools demolished (Israel refuses to issue Palestinians building permits on their own land), their lands stolen, their children attacked by armed bigots, more than 600 checkpoints, wall constructed to separate communities and illegal settlements built on Palestinian lands. More than 200 Palestinians in the West Bank have been killed by Israelis this year. Gaza's 2.2 million residents have been locked into the world's largest open air prison, kept on the edge of malnutrition, had their sewage processing plant deliberately destroyed and denied access to sufficient clean water. Meanwhile in the US, hundreds of millions are spent annually to ensure pro-Israel candidates are elected to Congress, that our press is flooded with pro-Israel propaganda, that laws are passed conflating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism and that people who speak out for Palestinian equality are harrassed, labeled as anti-semitic or even as supporters of terrorism, lose job opportunities and suffer from doxing. [Portion removed.] Bravo for these Stanford students!

Noel-Jews are indigenous to Israel. Where would you have the current inhabitants of Israel go?

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@Anonymous

Totally agree. The article’s title misleads as to the number of Stanford protestors. It appears to be well under 1%, or even 0.1%

@Sheri

Yes, Stanford students could demonstrate what a healthy debate could look like here.

The hate directed in both directions—but particularly towards Jewish students—is not helpful. It is hurtful.

Stanford students can and should do better here. Be an example.

It was bad enough to read of the biased and short-sighted basis for a sit-in that a few Stanford students are holding in White Plaza. Are they so uninformed that they do not know that Hamas just perpetrated the worst mass murder of Jews since the Nazi atrocities of WWII? I think not. They just choose to overlook it because it does not serve their purpose. It appalled me to read Noel's biased comments. "Land violently stolen from the local people"? The Jews are as "local" as anyone in Israel and 75 years ago they had to defend their new country in a war upon them started by Arabs. Sadly, little has changed. Certain Arabs will not leave Israel to exist in peace. Hamas started the current war to incite a wider Middle East conflagration. Israel's aim is to eliminate Hamas from the equation to preclude it from committing these outrages in the future. Israel has every right to defend itself. [Portion removed.]

Noel in Crescent Park needs to study the history of Israel. He is giving lip service to ridiculous and false information.

There is a helpful, short, and simply written history of the present state of Israel, written by Jeff Jacoby, in the 11/1/23 Boston Globe.

To those doubting the facts or the narrative of my comments, I suggest you do your own research. I have spent two decades on this issue and everything I said is accurate. And Stuart please note that 1) your comment that there were Jews among the local residents of Palestine prior to the creation of Israel does not justify in anyway the violent removal of 750,000 non Jews who, contrary to the terms of the Geneva Convention, have not been allowed to return to their lands and 2) that even before the formal creation of Israel on May 14, 1948 (which was done contrary to the wishes of the local non-Jews), Zionist terrorist groups were attacking Palestinians and British including blowing up the King David Hotel in 1946 killing 91 people and conducting the Deir Yassin Massacre in April of 1948 in which 107 defenseless Palestian men, women and children were executed, prompting hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to flee for their lives. This is part of what prompted the neighboring Arab states to come to the aid of the largely unarmed and unorganized Palestinian population.

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The land of Israel was not stolen. It was won by wars. Israel agreed to the initial UN deal 75 years ago. But Arab nations thought they could do better. Unfortunately they lost. The land was won, fair and square. There is no international law that says winner of the war shall give back the land it has won, especially when the winner did not provoke the war. Occasionally the winner, at its discretion, did give back the land to the losing side. Israel gave back land to Egypt in exchange for peace.

I think the word "genocide" is misused here. Gaza population has been growing rapidly over the years. There are many avoidable tragedies of war. But IMO it can hardly be categorized as genocide.

Jsmes, I suggest you read the Geneva Convention. Yes, there most defintely is an international law that stipulates that all refugees have the right of return to their homelands and the return of their homes and property after a war. After WWII there was an entire system of courts established with the sole task of returning property taken by the Nazis or arranging for compensation. After these specialized courts were discontinued, regular courts took over and cases have continued to be adjudicated in recent years primarily in what was East Germany as the Russians did not allow the courts jurisdiction in Eastern Europe after the war.

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The conflict traces back to the 19th century. They're born into it with no resolution in sight. Sadly, this is never ending. Unless you're of Jewish or Palestinian decent, it's wise to stay out of it.

Hamas launched a particularly gruesome and disgusting attack knowing that Israel would react with rage and power. It continues to launch rocket attacks from within civilian neighborhoods knowing full well Israel will respond. Hamas is cowardly and cynical and cares nothing about the welfare of the Palestinian people only the destruction of Israel and the West.

The reaction of college students and others in support of this terrorist group was too swift, too organized and too consistent in language and message to be spontaneous.

Bill, the students are not supporting Hamas, they are supporting Palestinian equality and human rights. The vast majority of the Palestinians killed by Israel in Gaza were either too young to vote in the election that Hamas very narrowly won, or they weren't even born yet.

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So, Noel, I do have to ask-do you believe that Jews are responsible for not only Hamas' brutal attack on civilians but also 9/11? What else have they done?

I take it that you believe Amin al-Husseini did not collaborate with the Nazis? And, while the King of Morocco did not hand over the Jews to the Nazis, Morocco had been historically virulently antisemitic, and most Jews left for Israel when they could. I take it that you believe Amin al-Husseini did not collaborate with the Nazis?

And, I'll repeat, where would you have the Jews, including the descendants of those that had to leave Egypt, Iraq, Syria, etc. in 1948 go?

Noel, According to the convention refugees can return after the war only if (1) they accept that the winner is the sovereign government of the land and swear to abide by the new laws of the land, and (2) they renounce violence, especially terrorism, against the people and the government of that land. No sane government will accept returning refugees who intend to sabotage and destroy the government.

And even if they are allowed to return it does not mean they could restore their full property rights before the wars. War has consequences. Poland took over vast amount of land from Germany after WWII. That's just rules of the game.

Unfortunately Palestinian organizations for a long time did not accept Israel, the winner of wars, as the sovereign government of that land. They have consistently claimed that they want to wipe out Israel. They resort to terrorism when multiple wars failed miserably, with ever increasing loss of the land along the way. How can Israel accept refugees in such circumstances?

Mind you, there was no wall between Gaza and Israel. The wall came up because of repeated terrorism offenses. Mind you, millions in West Bank have been peacefully coexisting with Israel. Millions of Arabs are working, living and raising families inside Israel.

The problem is Hamas.

HM, you're doing classic vilification move here claiming I said all kinds of things I never said. I don't blame "the Jews" for anything. Nor did I ever suggest that Jews need to leave Israel. And I suggest you read up about the history of Morocco and Jews.

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As an American paying my taxes that funds the design, manufacturing of deadly munitions, the sale of arms to countries — I have blood on my hands.

It disturbing for me to see in words here “the war was won fairly”. What war is fair? Who of us human life is more important to spare. What is apparent it’s a game of death by numbers. For every human life list on Oct 7, ten or 100 more killed. War is not the answer. Take the word peace. For every 100 times “war” word is uttered humans beings besieged killed, peace is squandered and secreted away. I have never felt such human fragility — the reality of this massive loss of life is nearer to an ancient Roman conqueror blood bath for the empire of territories (I apologize if I’ve offended anyone here). It’s like this is the last slice on earth, 2000 years on where the ancient world is being brutally beaten out and is flaring out with each flair up. I know nothing more than a broken heart ????

Protesters supporting Palestine and the chant, “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” calls for the razing of Israel.
Essentially it is a call for support of Hamas an organization against the liberal worldview of these pro-Palestinian protesters. So where is the outrage against Hamas for not building up the infrastructure of Gaza because the monies went to building up their underground network of tunnels.

"Observer" if your comment concerns Stanford Students, I sincerely doubt any are calling for the "Razing of Israel," and no, they are supporting Palestinians, not Hamas. Israel has long had the option of granting full citizenship and equal rights to all Palestinians, which would give Palestinians freedom from the river to the sea, but it has steadfastly refused to do so. Creating false bogeymen to defame critics of Israel or to spread fear among Jews is not helpful to the situation or to productive dialogue. Let's try to stick with facts and be productive and respectful.

@Noel
Not giving a pass to an institution that tried to impose a quota on Jews admitted to Stanford in the 1950s - you can google that.
Food for thought in the following articles: Web Link

and - Web Link

You can exist in the bubble or think deeply about the subtext of the current debate.

Noel, The questions are simple. First, should a government accept refugees from an organization who intend to sabotage and destroy that government, by any means including terrorism? The answer is no. That's just common sense.

Secondly, should the winning side of a war (in fact multiple wars) give up all the gains, including land and other properties, it has won by fighting the war that, by the way, was not provoked by the winning side? The answer is also no. That is also common sense.

Millions of Palestinians in West Bank have peacefully coexisted with Israel for quite a while now since the PLO accepted the reality. Millions of peaceful Arabs live inside Israel.

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Noel -- check your ``facts.''

The Jewish people are indigenous to Israel and had been there for millennia. There was a state of Israel 3 millennia ago. never a state of Palestine. There were Arab tribes in the region.

75 years ago there were 900K Jews living in Arab countries outside Israel. In 1950 it was few thousands (now essentially none). The Jews were persecuted and ethnically cleansed. Their property was stolen. They arrived to Israel as refugees, with no passports and no property.

It is true that 75 years ago a smaller number of Arabs left (after trying to kill all Jews unsuccesfully). They feard the Jews would do to them what they planned to do to the Jews. Somehow except for Jordan, Arab countries did not absorb them. The Arabs that did stay in Israel became contributing citizens in a liberal democracy in top positions. Many doctors, pharmacists, engineers, and Arab. Many speak against Hamas and understand well the situation (unlike the Stanford students and you).

As for ceasefire. I feel terrible for the citizens in Gaza, but there is no other way. Gaza is controlled by terrorist Hamas that embedded itself like cancer under hospitals and schools. Hamas stole aid money to build a war machine. Hamas poisoned youth with hate agenda in the Hamas-controlled schools. Hamas must be dismantled for better future for Israelis and Gazans. If Hamas is not dismantled, it will continue seeking opportunities to slaughter Israeli children (Jews and Arabs), kill LGBTQ Gazans, use Gaza children as human shields. This is their written platform. Hamas snipers shoot at Gaza civilians fleeing south. Hamas blocked exit of Gazans with foreign passports when it was stopped from smuggling its own people out in ambulances. If Hamas wants a ceasefire (will be used to regroup -- not help Gazans) they can release the hostages. If they de-militarize and release hostages there will be peace. It is in their hands.

James, Please read the history!

1. The Palestinian refugees of 1948 were not part of any organization trying to destroy anything, they just wanted to stay on their lands and have control over their lives. After the Deir Yassin massacre they fled by the tens of thousands while others were forcibly removed from their property by Zionist forces. In any case, the Geneva Convention, if you want to take the time to actually read it, is very clear that all refugees are entitled to return to their homes.

Your second paragraph is also not in accordance with the GA and it is factually wrong as Zionist terrorist groups went on the offensive well before any of the surrounding countries came to the aid of the Palestinians. The "winners" started the fighting.

I suggest you subscribe to Haaretz or find some other reliable information sources about Israel. The West Bank has been far from peaceful and the vast majority of vicitims of violence have been Palestinian. Israel refuses to grant building permits and uses that excuse to bulldoze Palestinian homes and schools and to steal land. They have also built illegal settlements and walled out the Palestinians. Please please please do some research!

Greene and Paly Parent, 3000 years ago??? What about the people who lived there 5000 years ago? What will our world look like if we start entertaining real estate claims from even 1000 years ago? If a group of Ohlone knock on your door and tell you they want their land back with your house and everything in it will you hand them your keys, take your children and just go meekly into the night????

Noel, As we all know, any legal system is a complex web of many laws, some of which seem to be vague, or contradict with each other. That's why we have lawyers and the supreme court to argue cases. Same (and probably even more complex) for the international legal system. There is no use to cling on one particular paragraph of a particular law, such as the Geneva Convention, which by itself is already a super complex set, to advocate a political view.

But we all need common sense. That's what said earlier. It's not only Israel. Any country, including the United States, or Iran, or Russia, will not accept refugees from an organization whose ultimate goal is to topple that government.

As for various atrocities committed during a war, we need to first analyze the historical context to see what was the rules of engagement of that time. History in the middle east is a big mess over thousands of years. The question is what is the realistic way to move forward in peace.

James, I appreciate your straightforward approach but I have to disagree that we should not follow international law as codified in the Geneva Convention. These laws were written with great care over many decades and are actually laws that our nation has agreed to abide by. If we had insisted that Israel abide by these laws from the outset, then we would not be where we are today with both sides feeling agrieved and committing mass murder while the average Ahmed and Abraham just want to live their daily lives in peace, safety and equality. International law is the only safe path out of this mess.

@Noel

So much alternative history and disinformation from you it is hard to know where to start.

The narrative of colonizers/indigenous is not applicable to the Jewish people in Israel. As said, a Jewish state existed 1900-3000 years ago BUT Jews continuously lived on that land ever since. There were Jews in Gaza and Hebron (now Palestinian areas). Jews are defined by their homeland even when not there, with many attempts to return to impoverished and conquered land.

"Palestinians" is a century-old identity. Exact same tribes as Jordan. There was never a Palestinian state -- a greater mostly Arab-Muslim region with tribes. The division to Lebanon/Jordan/Syria/Iraq was by France and Britain granting favors to tribal leaders.

Arab states in 1948 did not come to rescue of palestinians. Jordan took control of West Bank and Egypt controlled Gaza. They did not establish a Palestinian state in neither location.

Re 75 years ago. Early 20th century had a sequence of pogroms by Arabs against Jews. Not the other way -- the Jewish establishment never had displacement on its platform and the Jewish state was declared as respecting the rights of all its people. When Jews were defenseless, Arabs slaughtered. Not the other way. Dir Yasin was a tiny exception blown out of proportion. The 100,000 Jews living in Jerusalem were in grave danger. Arabs murdered convoys of doctors, and food tracks trying to reach the stranded city. 1200 Jews were killed by Arabs in Israel alone during those years. Dir Yasin had maybe 40. Women and children were told to leave. It just did not meet the high moral standards of the Jews.

The nukba should be viewed in terms of mass displacements in the greater region after WWII. Including that of more Jews (900k) that fled persecution and their property confiscated. Baghdad was 30% Jewish in 1948. Now it is essentially 0. At the same time, some Arabs left to Arab-controlled lands but those that stayed and their offsprings flourished.